West Virginia High
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West Virginia Wrestling -- December 1998 Forum (Part Three)

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December 31, 1998

From: spiderman
email: da_spider_112@yahoo.com
comments: hey fanpoll, i just have one question---on your poll ! how does wirt have five state champions and only finish 5th overall as a team! i'm not trying to criticize, but i get a lot of bad e-mail about how poor my poll is and i just wanted to point out that error in your predictions!

From: spiderman


email: bigjunk@hotmail.com
comments: hey fan poll! i see you picked jason waugh as the 153 pound state champ---if i 'm correct didn't waugh lose to kimble of frankfort!!

December 31, 1998
From: Jenny Sullivan
email: sullivj2@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
comments: I need your help!
I'm putting together a weight class review for each both AAA and AA divisions and I'd like up-to-date records on some of the state's top wrestlers. If you are a coach, wrestler, mat maid, statistician, parent, or fan who has accurate inforamtion on your team's wrestlers, please send the information my way. It will be a great help in putting together the article and it will be greatly appreciated! Please send any information to both the email address above and to the following address: reklus@juno.com (home email). Thanks for your help.
Happy New Year!

December 30, 1998
From: Kevin Wilson
email: kkwilson@inetone.net
comments: To: Old Coach. Well said old coach ! During my senior year at Shady Spring High School,'78-'79, we didn't have a 98 pounder. Being a co-capt. on the team and not wanting to forfeit a class, I started trying to think of someone to fill it for us. I knew of a fellow who didn't play any sports but appeared to be just about the right size to fill the bill for our team. I caught up with him as he was leaving science class and asked him to give wrestling a try. (Also, letting him know that he would be on the varsity squad and earn a letter as a sophomore didn't hurt.) He was reluctant but finally agreed to come out to practice that day. Well to make a long story short, this fellow ended up wrestling in the AA/A State finals his junior and senior seasons. He didn't become a state champion, but he was a state runner-up 2 times, '80 & '81. Not bad for someone who didn't even know he was an athlete until his sophomore year of high school. Hopefully, this story will prod some of you coaches and wrestlers to start looking at your student body with an eye on filling those empty weight classes instead of doing away with them. Who knows you might find a diamond in the rough like we did. By the way, if you were wondering about that fellow's name, it is Mark Chapman and he was also a part of state championship teams during those two seasons.

December 30, 1998
From: John
comments: The Greenbrier West Duals are Saturday, who does everyone think will win? Greenbrier West or Indepedence? It's come down to these to the past 2 years with Indy winning. Last year they won on the last match. Although this year they will be giving up 103 and maybe 152.

December 30, 1998
From: New coach
comments: The Dec. 29 comments from Old Coach are so insightful they should be mandatory reading for every jr. high wrestling coach. I hope someone snail (or e) mails it to every principal and school board member in the state.

December 30, 1998
comments: Hey fan poll 1
what about Chris Leach from Grafton at 125
he is pretty tough this year

December 29, 1998
From: Old Coach
comments: To Concerned Fan regarding your suggestion of dropping some weight classes: I think Jim LeMaster said it all when he commented that if a school of 500-600 students can't field a full or nearly full team, then maybe someone isn't promoting the program enough. I can't speak for high school coaches since I've never coached high school, and I realize that boys of that age develop stong interests in girls and cars, and a job to pay for the first two. However, things are different in jr. high.

When we started our program seven years ago, we were laughed at by the school board and our own school administration who said wrestling would never fly at our school; that we couldn't compete with "that other sport." We had 13 kids the first year and were called "outlaws" because we invited everyone to wrestle, their past be forgotten if they followed our rules. We had a horrendous first half, but no one quit and after a real strong finish the laughing stopped.

The last five years we have averaged 45 wrestlers and expanded to two teams out of a school enrollment of about 200 boys (several girls also wrestle for us). Last year, 41 of our 45 wrestlers had never wrestled before junior high, and most had never even seen a wrestling match.

What do we do to get the kids out? We talk up wrestling from the first day of school. We beg and plead with the kids before morning classes, in the hallways, at lunch, and even hit 'em up again as they walk to the buses after school (they're never safe). We tell them that if they don't quit, come to practice, and have the heart, they can be a champ, too. And we stress that they'll only wrestle kids their own weight. Especially with smaller kids, or kids with big hearts but small egos, all they need is for someone to make them feel wanted, like they're important. And every morning after practice, no matter how insignifigant the wrestler may seem, we make a point of complimenting him on his effort in the previous practice. (I know this isn't always possible for coaches who don't teach at the schools they coach at.) But one more thing, we promise our kids the one thing every student wants to hear--that we will never, EVER yell at him or raise our voices if they lose a match or make mistakes in practice. And when a kid does get discouraged and wants to quit, we tell him, no, that's not possible, because if the coaches aren't quitting on you, then you're not quitting on us. Sometimes, that's all they need to hear.

And for many of these kids to achieve something, to be somebody, it's in the LOWER weight classes, because they're not big enough for football or tall enough for "that other sport." Remember that little kids become big kids. And wrestling is the great equalizer for kids who don't have a chance to stand out in other sports when they're younger. All many of these kids need is a little encouragement and to know that their coach is behind them. The kids are out there waiting to join a sport they never thought about; they just need to be asked!

December 28, 1998
comments: in the AAA team poll, wheeling park was also listed as "other teams receiving votes", and had 3 votes

December 28, 1998
From: Coach
comments: To Nat Man:
I think (not 100% sure) the weight classes were changed because of the national high school average of boys weight and height. Maybe it was part of both reasons but I think this reason is closer to why they were changed.

December 28, 1998
From: A Wrestler
comments: NatMan!!! You have the right stuff, I totally agree with what you said! That is true The "litte guys" ( 103-112) should be as small as it goes. That is true, there would be even more forfeits with the old way. Way to go man!

December 28, 1998
From: FAN
comments: not up to date means that i am not really up to date on who is wrestling so i dont think it would be fair for me to predict winners if i dont know who is wrestling! And these predictions are with out me seeing everybody wrestle this year so my predictions will change threw the year. i've only been to a couple of toutaments.

December 28, 1998
From: REGION FOUR FAN
email: wv_wrestler@yahoo.com
comments: Region four hasn't been very good but watch out it is getting better. The region may not be strong in team competition but it does have great individuals such as Thompson 189, Lewis 189, Kinnley 171, Hale 130, and Blankenship 125. Greenbrier West is looking to three peat as region champions and good luck to all the wrestlers.

December 28, 1998
From: Nat Man
comments: To: Concerned Fan:
the old weight classes (98, 105, 112, 119, 126, 132, 138, 145, 155, 167, 185, 275) were re-arranged because of the very topic you depict: too many forfeits. Because many high school wrestlers fall in the middleweight category, an extra middle weight class was formed in 1988 while a light weight (98) was eliminated. Imagine all the forfeits today if the original weight classes were kept! Teams who now forfeit 103 and 112 would forfeit 3 weight classes instead of two! Adding the extra middle weight class added another class in the area where most teams need most: the middleweights! the new weight classes as of 1988 were 103, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, and 275. Since many football players were reluctant to cut weight to 189, the light heavy-weight division of 215 was created a few years ago to accommodate this factor. Any team unable to fill all weight classes should not be put down, but instead be encouraged to start a middle school or pee wee program to enhance the numbers! Reducing weight classes is not the answer, promoting the sport is!

December 27, 1998
From: Robert Hickman
email: SHIckman@aol.com
comments: Jim Lemasters is correct, the more kids that participate the better. Forfeits should not matter to coaches, If you can't fill a weight class you can't fill a weight class. As coaches we need to put our energy into something we can do something about. We need to work tirelessly with the kids that fill weight classes. I agree 100%, pee wee tournament directors must start making headgear mandatory. Good safety practices are an adult responsibility.

December 27, 1998
comments: here is the 160 pound state aaa championship prediction: lets just say sophomore over the senior as in rocky over the russian

December 27, 1998
comments: to fan pole 1: I would pencil in Mike Thompson from shady spring at 189

December 27, 1998
comments: To fanpoll 1:
First,are you serious! Second what does 'not up to date' mean?

December 27, 1998
From: Concerned Fan
comments: To Jim LeMaster,
First: I never said that the exrea weight classes added times to dual meets. Time in dual meets is not a problem - forfeits are! Secondly: Although you're able to fill your weight classes, you are obviously the exception rather than the rule. Otherwise we would have had more than 12 of 125 dual meets without forfeits. Third: Philosphically we all want to see all kids wrestle, and I will agree that one of the greatest stengths about our sport is that it gives kids of all sizes the chance to compete on a level playing field. If statistics bore out the fact that the weight classes were being filled more consistently I wouldn't have addressed this issue. But that is not the case, and has not been the case. Therefore it is time for a change.

December 27, 1998
From: Fan poll 1
comments: here are my predictions for the top 10 in a/aa states. it is called the fan poll 1. i will have more durning the season
1. Cameron
2. Oak Glen
3. Ritchie
4. Calhoun
5. Wirt
6. Williamstown
7. Berkley Springs
8 South Harrison
9. Weir
10. Braxton
103 Brown Cam
112 Wenmouth Will
119 Toss up: Westbrook Wil or Johnson Cal
125 Toss up from about 5 people: Hayhurst Rit, Bush Rav, Shearer Wirt, Blankenship GrW, Jones SH, Valles Weir, Prather Win
130 Lowe Wirt
135 Cross Wirt
140 Miller Wirt
145 Smith Rit
152 Waugh Berk
160 Richards SH
171 Drennen Wirt
189 not up to date
215 Lahman Pet
275 not up to date
December 27, 1998
comments: Here is a question I hope someone will answer. Why in the world do youth tournament directors continue to allow the wearing of headgear by youngsters to be OPTIONAL? If excessive weight loss is the silent scourge of our sport, surely the preventable cauliflower ear (which some former Olympians and international wrestlers who are shown on ESPN seem to wear as a badge of honor) is a close second. For those of you who have never seen a cauliflower ear--whether from repeated trauma to the ear or from a single event--the results are hideous. I challenge the people in charge of youth tournaments to change their entry form to make headgear MANDATORY. We need to protect the 7,8, and 9 year olds who are too young to knowingly assume the risk of permanent deformity. Are you tournament directors and youth coaches listening?

December 27, 1998
From: A Wrestler
comments: To Concerned Fan I can see what you mean, how there may be forfeits, but as Jim Lemaster said " How long does a forfeit take? It takes a few seconds. This doesn't add that long to a dual match! If you want to see wrestling then go to any match! Sure there may be some forfeits, but there is also a lot of good wrestling in all the weight classes 103-275! Have a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year

December 26, 1998
From: Jim LeMaster
comments: Regarding the dropping of weight classes. I feel that one of the best things about our sport is that it gives athletes of all sizes a chance to compete. As the dad of a wrestler who was 103 for 2 seasons, I hate to think of what we would have missed out on if the lower weight classes were eliminated. Also, you have stated an obvious contradiction in saying the matches are too long and their are too many forfeits! How long does a forfeit last? I certainly can not see how this would add an inordinate time to a dual meet. Lastly, I don't mean to sound cynical or sarcastic, but if a high school of 500-600 kids can't fill the majority of their weight classes then someone is not promoting their program enough. As a coach, we must talk up the sport year round to build interest. I coach in a middle school that has around 200 boys in grades 7 and 8. Of these, 1 out of 5 may be ineligible or be playing school or YMCA basketball. That leaves 160. I started the season with 48 kids the first day and have stabilized at 36. Many other schools fill all or nearly all their weight classes with even fewer kids. Instead of removing weight classes we need to get more kids involved.

December 26, 1998
From: Concerned Fan
comments: To A Wrestler and Coach,
You both make good arguements but I don't think you are looking at the big picture:
1. You're not wrestling in tose empty gyms, you're getting forfeits. I don't care how many people are in the gym I want to see wrestling.
2. Yes, for the most part the weight classes are full at the State Tournament and it is a great event. But last year 103 was not full. I'm not advocating dropping weight classes to be mean, I'm doing it to make the sport better. Better dual meet competition and better quality varsity competition. I'm trying to look at the big picture.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

December 26, 1998
From: A Wrestler
comments: Concerned Fan
On our team we have a full 14 on the Varsity and for the most part we have almost a full JV team I will agree, that the dual matches are quite long, but as the other wrestler said " I would wrestle in a empty gym" This is true -- I would too. So I don't see why anyone would even think off dropping a few weight classes, it just adds more excitement to the world of wrestling.

December 26, 1998
From: A wrestler
comments: To: The Concerned Fan You talk about having 14 weight classes hurts the fans by lengthening the match and tournament times, and how it hurts the fans by seeing forfiets. What you have to remember is that we are not in it for the fans. We are in in for us. A vast majority of wrestlers, including myself, would wrestle in an empty gym....

December 25, 1998
From: Coach
comments: To concerned fan:
I think you have missed the nail. You are talking about dual meetings. Go to the state tournament and see the 14 classes filled with 16 competitors and tell them "we are sorry boys but we are going to have to cut your weight class out this year just because during the regular season we did not have all weight classes filled and tournaments took to long." As a coach there are many unforseen reasons why weight classes are not filled. Sickness, injury, grades... the list could go on and on. During the winter months you can have a full 14 one week and then 8 to 10 because of these reasons. Even your JV comes under these conditions. I have seen one of our teams go from 21 to 13 in a span of 3 weeks because of these reasons. Dont say that the 14 are not important. I have heard a lot of rumblings in the coaching ranks to drop some classes, but I am one coach that does not want this. Remember the "big picture" (state tournament) not the small things.

December 25, 1998
From: Robert Hickman
email: SHickman@aol.com
comments: To Neutral Observer. Thanks for the compliment about East Fairmont Jr. High. We are improving but I don't think we are quite with the best yet. Yes rating Jr. Hi. teams is getting a bit carried away but do not forget Miller, Cheat Lake and Buckhannon. Each are building solid programs while generating a lot of positive interest in their sport at their schools. When looking at Jr. Hi programs do not leave out Mannington Middle School. Their numbers are small but coach Mike Hays is a super coach and person. North Marion Hi. School does not get state champions out of thin air. Most of them learned many lessons and good work habits from his program. Keep up the good work.

December 25, 1998
From: Nuetral Observer
comments: I think you may be getting a little carried away rating Jr. High and middle school teams. But if you decide to try, it is obvious that Mc Kinley,Cameron,East Fairmont, Moundsville, Sherrard, Independence, and maybe Harpers Ferry are the cream of the crop in Jr. High Wrestling. We will most likely never know about the Wood County teams since they do not travel, or allow out of county teams in. Ripley (#1 at Sherrard Classic) and Point Pleasant (Blue Sreak Champs), Cammack, and maybe Braxton ( #1 Middle School at BNI's) may be forces in middle school. Toby Ray had a real boss program at Wirt for years. Has he finally gone on to the high school ranks? I swear, he is one of the most knowledgable people I have ever known, not to mention the fact that he is one hell of a guy. I am just curious because I haven't seen any Wirt Middle school match scores lately (they weren't at Sherrard), and they had a great program for years.

December 25, 1998
From: Observer
comments: To Jim Lemaster--I agree that it would be unfair to rank Jr. High and Middle Schools together. But how about getting ten Jr. High and Middle School coaches from different regions to rank those teams in their divisions? It would give a good idea of different schools' wreslting programs and also might help for future scheduling, especially since some teams just wanna wrestle and are willing to travel just about anywhere for matches. And it's always good to wrestle new competition and see what programs are like throughout the state. What we need is someone willing to put this together, and someone who has knowledge of teams throughout the state. I don't want to put anyone on the spot, but there's a "certain coach" in the Wheeling area who is very fair, unbiased, and gives excellent write-ups. Maybe he'll see this and consider it (or perhaps you might be interested?) I'm afraid my knowledge of different teams is limited to what I read on this website. Other information could include coaches listing their top wrestlers who are having outstanding seasons in their weight classes. I know there have already been some classic match-ups of top wrestlers this year. Maybe Tim could offer suggestions on how to get this going?

December 25, 1998
From: Concerned Fan
comments: THE STATE OF HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLING:
I am concerned about the state of high school wrestling in WV and throughout the nation. About three years ago we added a 14th weight class a few years prior we added a 13th. I'm all for kids getting an opportunity to compete but not a the demise of the sport. I know that sounds rather fatalistic but we are facing some real problems with the sport. The extra weight classes have created a couple of real problems:

1. Too many forfeits! As a result of the additional weight classifications dual meet competition is evaporating. Of the 125 dual meet results on this web site through 12/23/98 only fifteeen matches have been conducted without a forfeit, a sorry 12%. On the other hand in 55 of these matches there have been 5 or more forfeits, or a whopping 44%. This is doing the sport a great injustice. Spectators go to meets to watch wrestling, not to see a wrestler have his/her hand raised without wrestling. How long do you think boxing would last if fans went to the arena and one opponent failed to show! Only about 1/3 (44) of the 125 meets have had two or fewer forfeits. Spectators go to meets to see wrestling not forfeits.

2. Length of tournaments! Due to the increase in weight classes tournaments are longer than ever. Using three mats, for all rounds but the semifinals and finals - two for the championships semifinals and two for the finals - taking only minimal breaks, in a sixteen man bracket, placing six, it takes approximately sixteen to seventeen hours to complete the event, if it is run smoothly. The additional weight classes add an additional 58 matches. At an average of five minutes per match this adds about two hours to the event.

It is obvious from my perspective that the powers to be need to analyze what is happening and reduce the number of weight classes. Going back to twelve classes would be good, but I wouldn't be opposed to ten. Not only would there be less forfeits, the marathons would become more spectator friendly.

If this makes sense to you then contact the WVSSAC and let them know how you feel. Thanks for listening.

December 25, 1998
From: Jim LeMaster
comments: To Observer,
Your idea sounds like a good one. As a middle school coach in the Cabell County area I would be glad to help. I do forsee one problem. How do we handle the fact that some counties have Jr. High's (7,8,9) and some have middle schools (7 & 8) only. This is a problem that I face all the time. My kids end up against either Jr. Highs or else high school freshmen. This is a somewhat drastic disadvantage.

December 24, 1998
From: fan
comments: Does anyone know what region Clay will be in?
Editor's note: Good question. I've made a couple of inquiries, no response. Looking at the region map it would make sense for them to be in Region 3 as there are only 7 teams here (9 if you count DuPont and Buffalo Putnam which don't have teams this year as far as I know). Region 4 is pretty full with 11 teams. But, this is just speculation on my part...

December 24, 1998
From: Wally
comments: Fayetteville's (152) J.R. Farnsworth and their (171) Ernest Skaggs look to be out for blood this year. And I would like to see them do it, all the way!!! Rumor Skaggs may be moving to 189???

December 24, 1998
From: Observer
comments: How about a junior high wresting page? I think there are plenty of interesting stories to tell about up coming young kids. And how about a poll? There are enough jr. high coaches who travel around who could compare teams throughout the state. I think it would be a good idea to rank teams in different regions. Moundsville Jr. High looks tops to me, but there are a number of other teams knocking at the front door (Sherrard, Independence, McKinley, Edison, Harpers Ferry, etc.)
Editor's note: We post all the Jr High/Middle School results we get, they are mixed in the Scores page with everything else. We could try to separate some things out into a separate page. As for a poll, that would best be done by the coaches because, as you correctly point out, the coaches are the people who see the kids. Perhaps something can be put together...

December 24, 1998
From: half nelson
comments: Both teams from Garrett County, Md are strong this year. Northern Garrett is more balanced, while Southern has some excellent individuals like Nick Dolan 3rd in state and Eric Rexrode 3rd in state. Both are among the favorites to win their respective weight classes 152 and 145 respectively. Additionally, the Hayhurst boys at 160 and 171 are both quality wrestlers and will be heard from in February. Lastly, Russell Crosco, 189, is solid and willbe a factor as well.

Northern Garrett defeated Fairmont Senior 56-10 and has some excellent wrestlers of their own. Jesse Shimrock, 140, 2nd in the state, defeated Mike Miller, a 3X WV state champion, in the finals at Berkeley Springs in a hard fought 3-1 decision. They have many more quality wrestlers, maybe not as much quality as Southern, but much deeper.

December 24, 1998
comments: If any one would like to know Luke Salmons of Ravenswood broke the 100 career wins mark. He now has a career record of 104-18. All of these came as a 275 competitor. With a record of 42-1 last year he is now chasing the all-time career win mark at Ravenswood. The record is held by two-time State champ John Heath who had 134 wins in 4 years. Luke is a remarkable athlete in three sports. It is a shame that the great Don Nehlan of WVU is over looking the States best lineman and not recruiting him. If any one was going to go and play football as hard as he could in college it would definately be a state champion wrestler who knows what it takes to be a champion.

December 24, 1998
comments: I think that dennis blankenship will win 125 AA/A at the states this year because he is an outstanding wrestler.


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Updated December 15, 1998