Region 4

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TrueSouthFanInPburg
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Region 4

Postby TrueSouthFanInPburg » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:47 am

Does anyone know where the Region 4 Tournament will be held ?

Cummings
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Re: Region 4

Postby Cummings » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:48 am

I believe it will rotate from north to south and vice versa. Things may change but I believe it will be at Spring Valley this year.
[color=#FF0000]Lee Cummings

guard0544
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Re: Region 4

Postby guard0544 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:06 pm

my schedule says it is at Huntington HS.

technical violation
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Re: Region 4

Postby technical violation » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:28 pm

Region 4 At Huntington , region 1 @brooke , not sure on the other 2

vortexfan
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Re: Region 4

Postby vortexfan » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:22 am

Sure would be nice to see two regions North and South and the top 8 go to states for the best chance of getting the best wrestlers at the states!

aacoach117
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Re: Region 4

Postby aacoach117 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:03 am

vortexfan wrote:Sure would be nice to see two regions North and South and the top 8 go to states for the best chance of getting the best wrestlers at the states!


I hate to get involved in restarting this conversation again, but it is likely that most of the top 4 from each region will be the top 8 in a two region format, so making a change like that results in very little change.

Making a change like that to accommodate one or two wrestlers is illogical. Making teams from the eastern panhandle like Washington travel all the way up to Wheeling (3 hours) or making Parkersburg travel all the way down to Bluefield (almost 4 hours) or Greenbrier county (3 hours) for regionals is going to lead to people complaining about the teams having to travel that far.

Plus, many teams don't host a regular season tournament and they count on the money from regionals every few years to help fund their team. If the regions were divided into two then a school would only rotate in to host regionals once every 13-15 years in AAA and once every 30 years or so in AA/A. That won't go over well with some teams.

Just accept that occasionally a good wrestler will not make states and quit expecting the entire state wrestling program be changed to accommodate a few people. Life isn't always fair. The best horse doesn't always win the Kentucky Derby, the best NASCAR driver doesn't always win the Winston Cup, the best football team doesn't always go to the Super Bowl, and occasionally a good wrestler won't go to states.

magna145
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Re: Region 4

Postby magna145 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:36 am

If it were a rare/occasional event I could understand your argument. However when it is set up to be a frequent/chronic event that's different. That fatalistic, predetermined outcome mindset prevents improvement. It seems though you will be happy. It is unlikely that it will change, maintaining the status quo. Thusly weakening our state tournament.

vortexfan
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Re: Region 4

Postby vortexfan » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:20 pm

aacoach117 wrote:
vortexfan wrote:Sure would be nice to see two regions North and South and the top 8 go to states for the best chance of getting the best wrestlers at the states!


I hate to get involved in restarting this conversation again, but it is likely that most of the top 4 from each region will be the top 8 in a two region format, so making a change like that results in very little change.

Making a change like that to accommodate one or two wrestlers is illogical. Making teams from the eastern panhandle like Washington travel all the way up to Wheeling (3 hours) or making Parkersburg travel all the way down to Bluefield (almost 4 hours) or Greenbrier county (3 hours) for regionals is going to lead to people complaining about the teams having to travel that far.

Plus, many teams don't host a regular season tournament and they count on the money from regionals every few years to help fund their team. If the regions were divided into two then a school would only rotate in to host regionals once every 13-15 years in AAA and once every 30 years or so in AA/A. That won't go over well with some teams.

Just accept that occasionally a good wrestler will not make states and quit expecting the entire state wrestling program be changed to accommodate a few people. Life isn't always fair. The best horse doesn't always win the Kentucky Derby, the best NASCAR driver doesn't always win the Winston Cup, the best football team doesn't always go to the Super Bowl, and occasionally a good wrestler won't go to states.


I think for the long term of improving wrestling in WV this 2 sectional format would be the way to go. What is the objective of the state tourney? I believe it's to get the best wrestlers as much as possible to compete, it would make the teams more competitive to vie for the team championship. In the philosophy you posted (that life is not always fair) why even seed the wrestlers in the regional and just tell the true 3rd place seed that he had to wrestle number 1 & 2 seed and get eliminated from the state s. Can you imagine the crowd draw if to say the north region was held at WVU and South region at Charleston Civic center. In reference to the length of travel, they don't have any problem traveling to Huntington for the states year in and year out. The revenue from the regions could be on rotating basis for funding or two schools take on the regions as hosts and divide the revenue. I just think when there is a better way to have the better wrestlers get to the states should be what we all want. The teams that normally bring half their teams to the states maybe will be able to compete with the Souths, PHS, Indy and Oak Glenn's each year, I believe the states are won by a team standpoint from the consoles at the states and the most likely best wrestlers will battle for individual state titles!

maskedman
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Re: Region 4

Postby maskedman » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:42 pm

I believe there is little weight to your argument l. Your complaint is not a systemic issue. It is an occasional. Furthermore, if you go two regions, there will be times that the 12 best in a weight class are in the same region. So now you are still back to the same thing.

So the only thing that will make some people happy is if they can pick their child and the other 15 kids they want at states. What ever happened to teaching athletes, students, and young people that here is the rules that we all play by. Now work hard and be all you can be. If you don't make it this year, train hard because you have four years of eligibility.

Or we can have an open tournament, one state champion trophy, and 47 second place trophies. That would be nice. That is the society that we live in now anyways.

TrueSouthFanInPburg
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Re: Region 4

Postby TrueSouthFanInPburg » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:52 am

Region 2 is at Hedgesville and Region 3 is at Woodroe Wilson.

Thomasdihy
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Region 4

Postby Thomasdihy » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:48 pm

Would someone that is very familiar with these new classifications help explain to me how they work and what is different from the old and who is in each conference or region or whatever? It would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Region 4

Postby Gator » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:45 pm

Thomasdihy wrote:Would someone that is very familiar with these new classifications help explain to me how they work and what is different from the old and who is in each conference or region or whatever? It would be greatly appreciated.



The region maps are shown on the Front Page, both AAA and AA/A.
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Bearhugger
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Re: Region 4

Postby Bearhugger » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:06 pm

Thomasdihy wrote:Would someone that is very familiar with these new classifications help explain to me how they work and what is different from the old and who is in each conference or region or whatever? It would be greatly appreciated.


The best way to see how the current regional alignment is different from the old is to do the following:

1. Go into the 2016 scores' section and look at the regional tournament results for each of the eight regions.

2. Then go into the 2016 state tournament section and look at the team scores.

3. The regions were realigned for the 2017 regional/state tournaments. Look at the 2017 scores' section and review the region scores.

4. Look at the 2017 state tournament scores.

In AAA, region 4 got loaded up with the historically wrestling talent rich schools. In AA/A, region 1 is the same situation.

mscoach4
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Re: Region 4

Postby mscoach4 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:25 pm

aacoach117 wrote:
vortexfan wrote:Sure would be nice to see two regions North and South and the top 8 go to states for the best chance of getting the best wrestlers at the states!


I hate to get involved in restarting this conversation again, but it is likely that most of the top 4 from each region will be the top 8 in a two region format, so making a change like that results in very little change.

Making a change like that to accommodate one or two wrestlers is illogical. Making teams from the eastern panhandle like Washington travel all the way up to Wheeling (3 hours) or making Parkersburg travel all the way down to Bluefield (almost 4 hours) or Greenbrier county (3 hours) for regionals is going to lead to people complaining about the teams having to travel that far.

Plus, many teams don't host a regular season tournament and they count on the money from regionals every few years to help fund their team. If the regions were divided into two then a school would only rotate in to host regionals once every 13-15 years in AAA and once every 30 years or so in AA/A. That won't go over well with some teams.

Just accept that occasionally a good wrestler will not make states and quit expecting the entire state wrestling program be changed to accommodate a few people. Life isn't always fair. The best horse doesn't always win the Kentucky Derby, the best NASCAR driver doesn't always win the Winston Cup, the best football team doesn't always go to the Super Bowl, and occasionally a good wrestler won't go to states.


I will disagree with you on this and here is why,,, Under the current system the 5th best wrestler in a region could quite possibly be a state placer. If we had a 2 region system in place the 9th best wrestler would at best be 9th place at the state tourney and not a state top 6 finisher

aacoach117
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Re: Region 4

Postby aacoach117 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:49 pm

mscoach4 wrote:
I will disagree with you on this and here is why,,, Under the current system the 5th best wrestler in a region could quite possibly be a state placer. If we had a 2 region system in place the 9th best wrestler would at best be 9th place at the state tourney and not a state top 6 finisher


I guess I don't follow your logic. In a 2 region system, the 9th best wrestler in a region would miss states just like the 5th best does now.

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Re: Region 4

Postby mscoach4 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:05 pm

What I am saying is, now its possible the 5th best wrestler in the state could miss the state tourney. With a 2 region system the left out wrestler could at best be the 9th best wrestler in the state

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Re: Region 4

Postby brentsams » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:53 pm

9th best doesn't place at States. Only top 6 wrestlers place and are considered all-state for that weight class. In current system, the 5th rated wrestler in the state would not get the opportunity to prove his ranking. I am not in favor of a 2 region state, but there is some frustration with the current regions.

Brent

mscoach4
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Re: Region 4

Postby mscoach4 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:40 pm

I like what they have done in track but I'm not sure it could be used in wrestling. In track they take the 3 top qualifiers in each region plus the next 4 best times regardless of region. That means a region could possibly have as many as 7 qualifiers in an event. In wrestling, rankings would have to be used instead of times. I am not sure that would work. Thoughts?

vortexfan
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Re: Region 4

Postby vortexfan » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:01 am

What is the objective of the state tourney? Anything that improves the chances of getting the best wrestlers at the states should be the system fans should want. I think this day and age with consolidations,not as many wrestlers as there once was etc..The two region format is the way to go. Unless there is a better idea, the above post on how track does it is better idea than what the current region alignment is today.

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coach_williams
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Re: Region 4

Postby coach_williams » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:55 am

mscoach4 wrote:What I am saying is, now its possible the 5th best wrestler in the state could miss the state tourney. With a 2 region system the left out wrestler could at best be the 9th best wrestler in the state


In theory you are correct. The problem is the 5th best wrestler could still miss states. All he has to do is draw a tough pill or have a bad match and place 9th in his region. Then the argument becomes about doing away with regions all together, because someone will point out that he defeated the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 8th wrestlers in regular season matches and therefore is clearly a better wrestler and there is a travesty being committed because he is not going to states.

The problem is this "fairness" thing becomes a slippery slope. Someone thinks it isn't fair that their kid or their favorite wrestler didn't make states, so they want to change the rules to make sure he does. Where does it stop? At what point do we expect athletes to win within the confines of the rules instead of trying to lower the bar so that they can win? What is next? Giving JV wrestlers a 2 point handicap to help them compete for varsity spots?

The irony here is that many of the people who are unhappy that the state tournament was moved back a week because a couple of wrestlers at a couple of schools had skin issues last year and were not going to get to compete at states are all for changing the regions for the entire state because one or two wrestlers didn't qualify for states.

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Re: Region 4

Postby coach_williams » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:04 am

mscoach4 wrote:I like what they have done in track but I'm not sure it could be used in wrestling. In track they take the 3 top qualifiers in each region plus the next 4 best times regardless of region. That means a region could possibly have as many as 7 qualifiers in an event. In wrestling, rankings would have to be used instead of times. I am not sure that would work. Thoughts?


Not an entirely bad idea. The only flaw is the rankings are inconsistent. Last year we had a wrestler jump from unranked all the way up to 5th based on a single win against a ranked wrestler. Two weeks later he was back off of the rankings list.

Also, coaches do not vote that often in the polls. For most of the season it was no more than 5 or 6 coaches voting on a regular basis. Once we get closer to conference and regional competitions they start voting so that they can use ranking as argument for seeding at those tournaments, so even then it is subjective.

And don't even get me started on the lack of consistent results reporting, which would be a huge factor in ranking wrestlers.

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Re: Region 4

Postby Gator » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:05 pm

coach_williams wrote:
mscoach4 wrote:What I am saying is, now its possible the 5th best wrestler in the state could miss the state tourney. With a 2 region system the left out wrestler could at best be the 9th best wrestler in the state


In theory you are correct. The problem is the 5th best wrestler could still miss states. All he has to do is draw a tough pill or have a bad match and place 9th in his region.



I'd say if a wrestler finishes higher than 8th in his region using this format, he wouldn't place(6th or higher) in the state tournament either.
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mscoach4
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Re: Region 4

Postby mscoach4 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:58 pm

It is good for discussion but I think we all know the WVSSAC would never do anything based on rankings. I'm not sure I would want them to anyway.

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Re: Region 4

Postby Bearhugger » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:51 pm

coach_williams wrote:
mscoach4 wrote:What I am saying is, now its possible the 5th best wrestler in the state could miss the state tourney. With a 2 region system the left out wrestler could at best be the 9th best wrestler in the state


In theory you are correct. The problem is the 5th best wrestler could still miss states. All he has to do is draw a tough pill or have a bad match and place 9th in his region. Then the argument becomes about doing away with regions all together, because someone will point out that he defeated the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 8th wrestlers in regular season matches and therefore is clearly a better wrestler and there is a travesty being committed because he is not going to states.

The problem is this "fairness" thing becomes a slippery slope. Someone thinks it isn't fair that their kid or their favorite wrestler didn't make states, so they want to change the rules to make sure he does. Where does it stop? At what point do we expect athletes to win within the confines of the rules instead of trying to lower the bar so that they can win? What is next? Giving JV wrestlers a 2 point handicap to help them compete for varsity spots?

The irony here is that many of the people who are unhappy that the state tournament was moved back a week because a couple of wrestlers at a couple of schools had skin issues last year and were not going to get to compete at states are all for changing the regions for the entire state because one or two wrestlers didn't qualify for states.


There is no pill in the regional tournaments. Depending on how the tournament would be ran, I would figure that a wrestler could lose as many as three matches and still place 8th.

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Re: Region 4

Postby coach_williams » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:03 pm

Bearhugger wrote:
coach_williams wrote:
mscoach4 wrote:What I am saying is, now its possible the 5th best wrestler in the state could miss the state tourney. With a 2 region system the left out wrestler could at best be the 9th best wrestler in the state


In theory you are correct. The problem is the 5th best wrestler could still miss states. All he has to do is draw a tough pill or have a bad match and place 9th in his region. Then the argument becomes about doing away with regions all together, because someone will point out that he defeated the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 8th wrestlers in regular season matches and therefore is clearly a better wrestler and there is a travesty being committed because he is not going to states.

The problem is this "fairness" thing becomes a slippery slope. Someone thinks it isn't fair that their kid or their favorite wrestler didn't make states, so they want to change the rules to make sure he does. Where does it stop? At what point do we expect athletes to win within the confines of the rules instead of trying to lower the bar so that they can win? What is next? Giving JV wrestlers a 2 point handicap to help them compete for varsity spots?

The irony here is that many of the people who are unhappy that the state tournament was moved back a week because a couple of wrestlers at a couple of schools had skin issues last year and were not going to get to compete at states are all for changing the regions for the entire state because one or two wrestlers didn't qualify for states.


There is no pill in the regional tournaments. Depending on how the tournament would be ran, I would figure that a wrestler could lose as many as three matches and still place 8th.


I know there is no true pill. The top handfull are seeded and the rest are placed by the pill.

I am too tired to look at it right now, but I think he would have to win his first match. Or lose his first and then nearly win out the rest of his matches. Wouldn't losing the first two result in elimination? In fact, I think in a 32 man bracket, if he went W-L-W-L the second loss eliminates him because he hasn't reached the placers match yet. I could be wrong.

ZZChooseTop
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Re: Region 4

Postby ZZChooseTop » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:55 am

coach_williams wrote:I know there is no true pill. The top handfull are seeded and the rest are placed by the pill.

I am too tired to look at it right now, but I think he would have to win his first match. Or lose his first and then nearly win out the rest of his matches. Wouldn't losing the first two result in elimination? In fact, I think in a 32 man bracket, if he went W-L-W-L the second loss eliminates him because he hasn't reached the placers match yet. I could be wrong.


If there are 2 regions and the top 8 qualify from each region why would we need a 32 man bracket?

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Re: Region 4

Postby Bearhugger » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:11 pm

mscoach4 wrote:I like what they have done in track but I'm not sure it could be used in wrestling. In track they take the 3 top qualifiers in each region plus the next 4 best times regardless of region. That means a region could possibly have as many as 7 qualifiers in an event. In wrestling, rankings would have to be used instead of times. I am not sure that would work. Thoughts?


Take the top 3 in each region. Then using an established criteria, select the three best wrestlers remaining. The criteria could be head to head wins against the remaining pack, head to head wins over the 9 regional qualifiers, returning state place winner, etc, etc. There is no certain order implied. Something like this would provide a better state tournament. Last season, South's Flinn got in despite being 5th in the region. Although he didn't place, he wrestled tough and looked just as good as the bottom place winners.

vortexfan
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Re: Region 4

Postby vortexfan » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:40 pm

Bearhugger wrote:
mscoach4 wrote:I like what they have done in track but I'm not sure it could be used in wrestling. In track they take the 3 top qualifiers in each region plus the next 4 best times regardless of region. That means a region could possibly have as many as 7 qualifiers in an event. In wrestling, rankings would have to be used instead of times. I am not sure that would work. Thoughts?


Take the top 3 in each region. Then using an established criteria, select the three best wrestlers remaining. The criteria could be head to head wins against the remaining pack, head to head wins over the 9 regional qualifiers, returning state place winner, etc, etc. There is no certain order implied. Something like this would provide a better state tournament. Last season, South's Flinn got in despite being 5th in the region. Although he didn't place, he wrestled tough and looked just as good as the bottom place winners.


I like this bearhugger

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coach_williams
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Re: Region 4

Postby coach_williams » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:21 pm

ZZChooseTop wrote:
coach_williams wrote:I know there is no true pill. The top handfull are seeded and the rest are placed by the pill.

I am too tired to look at it right now, but I think he would have to win his first match. Or lose his first and then nearly win out the rest of his matches. Wouldn't losing the first two result in elimination? In fact, I think in a 32 man bracket, if he went W-L-W-L the second loss eliminates him because he hasn't reached the placers match yet. I could be wrong.


If there are 2 regions and the top 8 qualify from each region why would we need a 32 man bracket?


I can't do math... :lol:

greencrush
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Re: Region 4

Postby greencrush » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:17 pm

OR, we could go to an all class state tournament, with 32 man brackets. Same number of wrestlers qualify, same number of matches take place at the state tournament, so on so forth. Just up the number of place winners to 8 ( I guess this would actually at 16 matches to the tournament, so more revenue). Nobody wants to do it because they are scared of making it too competitive.


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