Forfeit scoring

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vortexfan
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:48 pm

Forfeit scoring

Postby vortexfan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:22 pm

This may have been discussed before but I noticed several teams suffer forfeits, just curious if scoring rule could be changed for forfeits that the first team forfeit be six points (pin) second team forfeit (Tech fall points) third team forfeit (major dec points) and four or anymore forfeits for that dual (decision points)?

KDunbar
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:39 pm

Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby KDunbar » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:34 pm

Why? So a team could wrestle just its 7 best wrestlers and get pins and be assured of winning every dual match? Actually, they would only need to win 5 pins and one decision and they could never be beaten. Maybe this idea could even be extrapolated to be used in tournaments too. What a chess match between coaches to figure out who to wrestle and who to just forfeit.

KDunbar
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:39 pm

Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby KDunbar » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:37 pm

I have another idea. Why couldn't they wrestle their JV wrestler in place of a forfeit and we could adjust the points scored based on how well the wrestler ahead of him on the team is ranked.

mike.carman
Posts: 261
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Location: Marshall County

Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby mike.carman » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:58 pm

WOW! I'm speechless.

KDunbar
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby KDunbar » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:10 pm

Sorry, just got overly excited with all the possibilities.

mike.carman
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Location: Marshall County

Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby mike.carman » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:21 pm

KDunbar wrote:Sorry, just got overly excited with all the possibilities.


lol

aacoach117
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby aacoach117 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:57 pm

I have seen some confusion on here as to why a forfeit counts as 6 points or asking if it would be logical to reduce the amount of points a forfeit counts for. There is a very good reason why forfeits count as 6 points, it is to keep coaches honest. Imagine the scheming that could be done if a forfeit only counted as 3 points. If I had a first-year wrestler that I was sure would get pinned by the three-time state champ that he is about to face, I could simply pull him from the line-up and only surrender 3 forfeit points rather than the 6 point pin. JV wrestlers would almost never get on the mat (and we all know how upset bearhugger would be about that :mrgreen: ).

Another scenario could be a team leading a dual by 4 points with only heavyweights left to wrestle. The team with the lead could simply not let their heavyweight wrestle and give up a 3 point forfeit and guarantee themselves a win by one point rather than risk him losing by tech fall or pin and losing the dual.

vortexfan
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:48 pm

Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby vortexfan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:03 pm

aacoach117 wrote:I have seen some confusion on here as to why a forfeit counts as 6 points or asking if it would be logical to reduce the amount of points a forfeit counts for. There is a very good reason why forfeits count as 6 points, it is to keep coaches honest. Imagine the scheming that could be done if a forfeit only counted as 3 points. If I had a first-year wrestler that I was sure would get pinned by the three-time state champ that he is about to face, I could simply pull him from the line-up and only surrender 3 forfeit points rather than the 6 point pin. JV wrestlers would almost never get on the mat (and we all know how upset bearhugger would be about that :mrgreen: ).

Another scenario could be a team leading a dual by 4 points with only heavyweights left to wrestle. The team with the lead could simply not let their heavyweight wrestle and give up a 3 point forfeit and guarantee themselves a win by one point rather than risk him losing by tech fall or pin and losing the dual.


I see that point but just thought it would make duals closer for a team that has maybe 4 forfeits or if flu bug hits a team with scheduled dual or duals tourney.

Rather than awarding the other team 24 points for four forfeits it would make it closer. I think if a team has to forfeit 4 to 5 weight classes they are probably not going to win dual team match.

KDunbar
Posts: 288
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby KDunbar » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:58 pm

We could always make the last match of a dual an optional double or nothing for the team behind if they had more than 4 forfeits and then, sort of like a daily double on Jeopardy, they could double the difference between their score and the team ahead of them and then whoever won the last weight class wrestled would always win the dual match when a team has 4 forfeits or more and now even more coaching strategy would be involved and every dual match with at least 4 forfeits would be close and exciting. Sorry for the run on sentence but I got excited again with all the possibilities. Shoot, we could even add in other possibilities so where, like in the Wheeling Park vs Steubenville dual on 1/10 where there were only 3 forfeits but 3 injury defaults one could retroactively make an injury default count as a forfeit and it could come down to the last match, oh wait... never mind, it did come down to the last match anyway. Maybe we should just forget it all.

mike.carman
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Location: Marshall County

Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby mike.carman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:18 pm

I understand that schools don't have full lineups and I am trying to stay objective. I really only see this as punishing the team with a full lineup. The coach went out and got kids to wrestle in his program and fill his lineup. He needs rewarded for that. I have to say this, my oldest son has wrestled HS varsity for three years now and we have only wrestled a few duals with other teams that had more than 2 or 3 holes in their lineups and in 115 total matches, he has only received maybe 4 forfeits. I am not saying it isn't different for other parts of the state or even the country, but I personally have not ran into too much of this.

aaacoach89
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby aaacoach89 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:28 pm

Our team has 2-3 holes in it every year, which is frustrating.......but I don't think that it should penalize the team we are facing. It's on us to fill the holes, and have a team that is built for duals. It can be used as something to fuel the energy you put into trying to get the kids to come out. For instance, last year we forfeited 3 weight classes, meaning we were down 18 points from the start. We rarely lost a dual by that amount. We were competitive most of the time.

It's frustrating to not win your dual matches, but its not the the fault or responsibility of the team that DOES fill their lineup to cater to us, so we can be competitive. It's on us to get the job done.

vortexfan
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby vortexfan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:56 pm

If you add up the points it would still be pretty significant to forfeit matches.
I guess it’s whatever side your seeing this, hard for some schools to fill a full team but oh well, thought it might be a good idea.

vortexfan
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby vortexfan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:58 am

Look at Ripley vs St Marys and Ravenswood then Bridgeport vs Liberty Harrison, again this is whatever side your on, i don't understand the more you make this wrestling competitive the better the sport. I did not not look at all the dual scores just a few but did notice many schools have a hard time filling every weight class. I think it should be looked at with the dwindling numbers of wrestlers.

vortexfan
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby vortexfan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:38 am

mike.carman wrote:I understand that schools don't have full lineups and I am trying to stay objective. I really only see this as punishing the team with a full lineup. The coach went out and got kids to wrestle in his program and fill his lineup. He needs rewarded for that. I have to say this, my oldest son has wrestled HS varsity for three years now and we have only wrestled a few duals with other teams that had more than 2 or 3 holes in their lineups and in 115 total matches, he has only received maybe 4 forfeits. I am not saying it isn't different for other parts of the state or even the country, but I personally have not ran into too much of this.


How many forfeits did Morgantown have vs John Marshal?
I don’t think the scoring would have changed the outcome but the forfiets are sad to see. Good luck to your son

vortexfan
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby vortexfan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:52 pm

Cameron had six forfeits in their dual vs Brooke

Gator
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Location: South Parkersburg-Moderator WV Mat

Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby Gator » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:58 pm

I think the answer to the forfeits may start with community interest in a youth mat program , not a different scoring system for forfeits.
Moderator WV Mat

coach_stump
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby coach_stump » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:26 pm

Not trying to upset the wrestling nation unlike some others, if the number of forfeits want to be decreased, lower the number of weight classes. Twelve weight classes worked well in the past, colleges go with ten, smaller schools may be able to compete since the number of forfeits will decrease, giving them a better chance to win the dual. But don't change how the scoring of forfeits is now.

mike.carman
Posts: 261
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Location: Marshall County

Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby mike.carman » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:33 am

vortexfan wrote:
mike.carman wrote:I understand that schools don't have full lineups and I am trying to stay objective. I really only see this as punishing the team with a full lineup. The coach went out and got kids to wrestle in his program and fill his lineup. He needs rewarded for that. I have to say this, my oldest son has wrestled HS varsity for three years now and we have only wrestled a few duals with other teams that had more than 2 or 3 holes in their lineups and in 115 total matches, he has only received maybe 4 forfeits. I am not saying it isn't different for other parts of the state or even the country, but I personally have not ran into too much of this.


How many forfeits did Morgantown have vs John Marshal?
I don’t think the scoring would have changed the outcome but the forfiets are sad to see. Good luck to your son


A lot. That would have been one of the few teams I was referring to. I did speak to the coach and he informed me that they had some illness and injuries that prevented a lot of his kids from wrestling and has been an ongoing issue for the team all season.

Bearhugger
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby Bearhugger » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:18 pm

coach_stump wrote:Not trying to upset the wrestling nation unlike some others, if the number of forfeits want to be decreased, lower the number of weight classes. Twelve weight classes worked well in the past, colleges go with ten, smaller schools may be able to compete since the number of forfeits will decrease, giving them a better chance to win the dual. But don't change how the scoring of forfeits is now.


Coach Stump, I am not trying to attack your comments but merely using this as my launch pad.

1. Wrestling is an individual sport first! Team sport second. When I went to Super 32, I see individuals down there doing their thing. If they had to have 13 other wrestlers to join them in order to compete, they would not be competing. They would be at home becoming lazy or getting into bad stuff. When I went to Ironman, I saw individuals there doing their thing. They were awarded the opportunity to compete based on what they have already accomplished, based on their individual hard work. If Ironman only accepted teams, then the top individuals would be stuck at home.

2. The increase from 12 to 14 weight classes has been nothing but a good thing. If we want to decrease weight classes, then that increases the chances for more good wrestlers to be JV, thus SOL. Decrease weight classes, then let all individuals compete. Fiddle around with the team stuff but it won't change anything. They say "it takes a village to raise a child". I believe "it takes a village to build a wrestling team......more now than ever". Some villages are not cutting the mustard. Either the superintendent of schools, the principal, the middle school without a wrestling team, etc, etc is working against the village. Parkersburg has their village running on high octane. Some villages have their own administration urinating in the gas tank.

3. College wrestling's weight classes need to be increased. They go from 197 to 285. High school has 220 and international competition has whatever it has around 214/220. College needs to add a 220!
Bringing balance to the forum, one post at a time.

coach_stump
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Re: Forfeit scoring

Postby coach_stump » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:36 pm

Bearhugger, thanks for not attacking me and my thoughts, bears can get pretty vicious. I would be in favor of anything WV or any other state could do to get more participation in the best sport of mankind. But we also must face facts. According to a survey conducted by the National Federation of State High School Association, the number of wrestlers has decreased since 2010-2011. I also read that even in the state of Pennsylvania where wrestling is outstanding, numbers have been dropping. The only number that has risen across the nation is the number of female wrestlers.
We have had somewhat success at my school but never achieved a state team title, due mostly to the lack of numbers. We had and still have outstanding individuals who are coaching our youth but numbers are just not there. Yes, there are small schools such as ours that are having current success but if you follow such schools, it runs in cycles.
I will close by saying that you watched individuals participating in the large tournaments and having success. I will tell you this, it takes two to make one. I know, I've had a good many, but never big numbers to fill out the classes to be on top. Thanks for what you do to make WV wrestling better than my tenure. Coach Stump


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