Toughest Tournaments in WV

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maskedman
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:07 am

Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby maskedman » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:15 pm

Rank the top 5 tournaments, dual or individual, in State of West Virginia.

Although I will concede OVAC, AAA Region 4, AA/A Region 1 are tough, please don't include conferences or regions.

Looking for the top tournaments that teams can get into.

Whizzer
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby Whizzer » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:37 pm

Wheeling Park Duals

Jason Eades Tournament

WSAZ of course...

figure4match
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby figure4match » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:48 pm

Brooke

Bearhugger
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby Bearhugger » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:44 pm

Winner's Choice and WSAZ and that is it.

The Cameron tournament was also filled with many top notch individuals in all weight classes.

All dual tournaments are hit and miss. For example, at the Wheeling Park Duals, three of WV's best AAA 160s were in attendance(Nash, Holley and Carmen). All three went 9-0 for the weekend. They didn't face the toughest competition that shared the same roof for two days(each other). They got 9 matches which was good. The question then becomes do you want a lot of crummy matches or do you want fewer matches that test where you are?

On the other hand, these same duals did luck out and produce Hall vs Rea Part 1.

I think WV is in need of another big tournament. It could be held the same weekend as the Single A Challenge. Consolidate some of these waning tournaments, bring on some other schools and make something worth attending.
Bringing balance to the forum, one post at a time.

Bearhugger
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby Bearhugger » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:45 pm

figure4match wrote:Brooke


Very tough indeed. Lacking WV schools though.
Bringing balance to the forum, one post at a time.

mike.carman
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Location: Marshall County

Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby mike.carman » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:04 pm

Bearhugger wrote:
figure4match wrote:Brooke


Very tough indeed. Lacking WV schools though.


There were 5 WV schools in attendance, 8 Ohio schools and, 5 PA schools.
But the competition was tough all in all and I like the mix of out of state schools. Although brackets were limited to 16 so smaller than OVACs but some of the brackets were tougher than the OVAC brackets. Quality over size wins out in my book every time.

aacoach61
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby aacoach61 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:59 pm

5 toughest in WV:

1. OVAC
2. Winners Choice
3. Park Duals
4. WSAZ
5. Toss up

aaacoach90
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Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:19 am

Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby aaacoach90 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:47 pm

1. WV State Championship
2. WSAZ
3. Wheeling Park duals
4. Winners Choice
5. Point Pleasant Jason Eades Duals
Last edited by aaacoach90 on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Heisenberg
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:25 pm

You know what is harder than any of these tournaments?
Apparently following directions! :mrgreen:
I believe the original poster asked for tournaments that any team can get in and specifically said no conference or regional tournaments.

KDunbar
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:39 pm

Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby KDunbar » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:18 pm

Bearhugger wrote:Winner's Choice and WSAZ and that is it.

The Cameron tournament was also filled with many top notch individuals in all weight classes.

All dual tournaments are hit and miss. For example, at the Wheeling Park Duals, three of WV's best AAA 160s were in attendance(Nash, Holley and Carmen). All three went 9-0 for the weekend. They didn't face the toughest competition that shared the same roof for two days(each other). They got 9 matches which was good. The question then becomes do you want a lot of crummy matches or do you want fewer matches that test where you are?

On the other hand, these same duals did luck out and produce Hall vs Rea Part 1.

I think WV is in need of another big tournament. It could be held the same weekend as the Single A Challenge. Consolidate some of these waning tournaments, bring on some other schools and make something worth attending.


I don't want to be negative, but this comment caught my attention. To promote wrestling on a positive basis one needs to watch how they phrase things. I'm not one to candy coat things, but to imply that in going 9-0, Nash, Carmen, and Holley had a lot of crummy matches just because they didn't face each other is showing a lot of disrespect for the 27 wrestlers that they did face. At least that's how it struck me when the discussion was about what were the best tournaments. Maybe getting 9 matches is the best for the majority of the "crummy" wrestlers who make up these dual tournaments compared to the 2 matches they would get at others. In some ways, is there really any tough tournaments in WV for Nash, Carmen, and Holley.

maskedman
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby maskedman » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:43 pm

So no real definitive answer on order but within guidelines of the question it looks like the results are:

Winners Choice
Wheeling Park Duals
WSAZ
Brooke
Jason Eades

Cameron Honorable Mention

OVAC excluded due to conference restriction, but tough none the less.

aaacoach28
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby aaacoach28 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:50 pm

The Brooke Tournament was by far the toughest tournament in WVa.South finished 2nd too very good team that they beat by 30 points in the Powerade Tournament. Answer this question after the State Tournament. There were more quality wrestlers there than any tournament in WVa.

vortexfan
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby vortexfan » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:10 pm

The WV duals at Parkersburg used to be a very competitive tourney. Do not know what happened there but it’s a shame, anyone know?

KDunbar
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby KDunbar » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:23 pm

aaacoach28 wrote:The Brooke Tournament was by far the toughest tournament in WVa.South finished 2nd too very good team that they beat by 30 points in the Powerade Tournament. Answer this question after the State Tournament. There were more quality wrestlers there than any tournament in WVa.


I think this is probably the correct answer, with Seneca Valley, PA thrown into the mix (with Erie Cathedral Prep and South). 20 of the top 28 wrestlers came from these three schools. There were more numbers maybe at the WSAZ and some good quality wrestlers also at the Winner's Choice so it might also be partially up to where you are coming from as a team and a wrestler when you are comparing tournaments and who happens to be in your weight class on any given weekend (Caleb Rae might pick the recent tournament at Buckeye Local if it was in WV :) ). It's hard to get everyone to agree unless there are some specefic criteria everyone can agree upon as to what constitutes a "tough" tournament. From my point of view it all depends on which one has the worst seats to set in all day long ;) .

mscoach4
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby mscoach4 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:34 pm

We are talking about tourneys that take place in WV which would include Brooke. How could any tourney in which this years South team did not finish first not be the toughest in WV?

maskedman
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby maskedman » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:54 pm

mscoach4 wrote:We are talking about tourneys that take place in WV which would include Brooke. How could any tourney in which this years South team did not finish first not be the toughest in WV?

I would have said Brooke was this year before I ever posted, I opened it up to the people of the forum. Took the comments of all and gave a nondefinitive list based on input.

I guess I will stop now, but every time a bitch session started, I tried to post a topic that was more positive based about wrestling to engage fans of the sport rather than to run off users with nothing but complaint posts.

Seemed to work as to engage people in wrestling talk and discussion as opposed to general complaining and whining. You know, the reason this forum was created in the first place.

Fun while it lasted. Hope more people can do the same.

Ask yourselves when you complain, are you really thinking your complaint is helping the sport, or are you just mad that the information that YOU want YOU don't have. Stop the negativity and talk wrestling. It is more fun that way.

vortexfan
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby vortexfan » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:37 am

Anyone know what happened with Wv duals? Was a very good competitive tourney at one time.

KDunbar
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby KDunbar » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:41 am

mscoach4 wrote:We are talking about tourneys that take place in WV which would include Brooke. How could any tourney in which this years South team did not finish first not be the toughest in WV?


Probably correct (however, for South the Powerade was tougher than Brooke, even though they beat Erie in the one and not the other, so one sees the difficulty in rating tournaments). [ I know Powerade was not in WV, just making a point] Unless by tough you mean for your wrestler to win at least one match, or two matches, or three matches. Or is it based on placing in the top 6 (or top 8)? Or is it for your team to place in the top 10? Or is it for your wrestler to win the tournament or your team to win? Decide which and you might be able to come up with a more precise answer (not saying one has to decide, just commenting on the difficulty with the question).

After writing this draft, I now see the post by maskedman above. Just to clarify, I'm not bitching, countering another person's opinion, or being negative. Just making an observation as I thought about the question and observed the responses. Not saying it is wrong to ask the question or to come up with a list. With that said I'll risk going ahead and posting. Actually, the posts on here are more positive than usual when this topic has been brought up many times in the past (maybe that's because the OVAC was eliminated from consideration).

Bearhugger
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby Bearhugger » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:53 am

KDunbar wrote:
Bearhugger wrote:Winner's Choice and WSAZ and that is it.

The Cameron tournament was also filled with many top notch individuals in all weight classes.

All dual tournaments are hit and miss. For example, at the Wheeling Park Duals, three of WV's best AAA 160s were in attendance(Nash, Holley and Carmen). All three went 9-0 for the weekend. They didn't face the toughest competition that shared the same roof for two days(each other). They got 9 matches which was good. The question then becomes do you want a lot of crummy matches or do you want fewer matches that test where you are?

On the other hand, these same duals did luck out and produce Hall vs Rea Part 1.

I think WV is in need of another big tournament. It could be held the same weekend as the Single A Challenge. Consolidate some of these waning tournaments, bring on some other schools and make something worth attending.


I don't want to be negative, but this comment caught my attention. To promote wrestling on a positive basis one needs to watch how they phrase things. I'm not one to candy coat things, but to imply that in going 9-0, Nash, Carmen, and Holley had a lot of crummy matches just because they didn't face each other is showing a lot of disrespect for the 27 wrestlers that they did face. At least that's how it struck me when the discussion was about what were the best tournaments. Maybe getting 9 matches is the best for the majority of the "crummy" wrestlers who make up these dual tournaments compared to the 2 matches they would get at others. In some ways, is there really any tough tournaments in WV for Nash, Carmen, and Holley.


Nash, Holley and Carmen could have wrestled each other if a different format was used. Instead, three top wrestlers never faced each other. Because of this, I question how tough the Wheeling Duals actually are. We can also look at all of the teams that participated. Most of them have 1 to 3 top individuals, but not strong teams. In these days of forfeits, any dual based competition is inferior to a bracketed tournament when you are measuring toughness. The dual concept is better in hoping to get each wrestler five matches a day.
Bringing balance to the forum, one post at a time.

KDunbar
Posts: 287
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby KDunbar » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:59 pm

Bearhugger wrote:
KDunbar wrote:
Bearhugger wrote:Winner's Choice and WSAZ and that is it.

The Cameron tournament was also filled with many top notch individuals in all weight classes.

All dual tournaments are hit and miss. For example, at the Wheeling Park Duals, three of WV's best AAA 160s were in attendance(Nash, Holley and Carmen). All three went 9-0 for the weekend. They didn't face the toughest competition that shared the same roof for two days(each other). They got 9 matches which was good. The question then becomes do you want a lot of crummy matches or do you want fewer matches that test where you are?

On the other hand, these same duals did luck out and produce Hall vs Rea Part 1.

I think WV is in need of another big tournament. It could be held the same weekend as the Single A Challenge. Consolidate some of these waning tournaments, bring on some other schools and make something worth attending.


I don't want to be negative, but this comment caught my attention. To promote wrestling on a positive basis one needs to watch how they phrase things. I'm not one to candy coat things, but to imply that in going 9-0, Nash, Carmen, and Holley had a lot of crummy matches just because they didn't face each other is showing a lot of disrespect for the 27 wrestlers that they did face. At least that's how it struck me when the discussion was about what were the best tournaments. Maybe getting 9 matches is the best for the majority of the "crummy" wrestlers who make up these dual tournaments compared to the 2 matches they would get at others. In some ways, is there really any tough tournaments in WV for Nash, Carmen, and Holley.


Nash, Holley and Carmen could have wrestled each other if a different format was used. Instead, three top wrestlers never faced each other. Because of this, I question how tough the Wheeling Duals actually are. We can also look at all of the teams that participated. Most of them have 1 to 3 top individuals, but not strong teams. In these days of forfeits, any dual based competition is inferior to a bracketed tournament when you are measuring toughness. The dual concept is better in hoping to get each wrestler five matches a day.


So what? You aren't responding to my point. I wasn't commenting on the discussion everyone else was having on the topic. Just your choice of referring to all (or any) of their competition as crummy. These may be the same wrestlers and parents that you want to flock to your facebook page.

russling
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby russling » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:42 pm

Can anyone with knowledge do a comparison with OVAC vrs WSAZ winners?

KDunbar
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby KDunbar » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:05 pm

russling wrote:Can anyone with knowledge do a comparison with OVAC vrs WSAZ winners?


What criteria would you use to compare that would be meaningful and over what time period would one choose?

maskedman
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby maskedman » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:17 pm

russling wrote:Can anyone with knowledge do a comparison with OVAC vrs WSAZ winners?


Looked mainly at winner's, but where I was unsure, I looked deeper into bracket and depth to make determination of stronger by weight class. This is my best look and comparison.

WSAZ – 7
OVAC – 6
Toss-Up - 1

Weight: 106 – WSAZ
OVAC: Howard Williams, East Liverpool defeats Jace Stockett, University in close 3-2 match.
Jace Stockett barely defeated WSAZ Runner-Up Geno Cassucio, East Fairmont in 1 point match.
Amonn Ohl, St. Joseph fully controlled and pinned Geno Cassucio at WSAZ Finals.

Weight: 113 – OVAC
Much tougher analysis, but Brandon Holt defeated Blake Whorton in 4-0 match. Blake Whorton defeated #4 Placer Shawn Moore in low scoring match. With him placing 4th, edge has to go to OVAC.

Weight: 120 – WSAZ
WSAZ Runner-Up defeated OVAC Champion head to head on December 21, 2017

Weight: 126 – WSAZ
WSAZ Champion defeated both the OVAC Champion and the OVAC Runner-Up this season.

Weight: 132 – OVAC
WSAZ finals was closer match that runner-up had with OVAC Champion. Hall and Rea finals tough to overcome.

Weight: 138 – OVAC
This one a little tougher to narrow down, but OVAC Runner-Up tech falled WSAZ Runner-Up, Champions harder to compare.

Weight: 145 – WSAZ
Johnson, John Hardin high school is 2 x All-American and real deal. Alex Hart has incredible wins on the season and was no match for WSAZ Champion. Zeiders is competitive, but WSAZ had stronger field this year.

Weight: 152 – OVAC
Humphrey’s and Hubbard, same weight class. OVAC Stronger field. Humphrey’s dominated Harvey in December.

Weight: 160 – WSAZ
This one was close, but Hinzman and Gibson was a tight match in December. Since OVAC’s Hinzman has gotten win back over Carman. Smallwood, John Hardin is the better of the four.

Weight: 170 – WSAZ
Simpkins is tough, but the entire field at WSAZ were beating each other. The more competitive and stronger bracket. Simpkins may have won both, States may make me change my mind. We shall see.

Weight: 182 – WSAZ
This one as a whole is a toss-up, but I believe that WSAZ Champion has win over OVAC Champion. Lanham over Dunbar – if this is wrong let me know?

Weight: 195 – Toss-Up
I personally don’t know enough about the Ohio kids that were at the top of OVAC, so can’t compare with WSAZ top contenders. Someone else may have to weigh-in.

Weight: 220 – OVAC
To be the man, you have to beat the man. Until somebody proves otherwise, where Amos is, it was tougher.

Weight: 285 - OVAC
OVAC will get the edge with Haga taking third, but this is a close race, as some tell me that Porter and Haga will be a good battle, but will give edge to OVAC.

ZZChooseTop
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby ZZChooseTop » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:28 pm

maskedman wrote:
russling wrote:Can anyone with knowledge do a comparison with OVAC vrs WSAZ winners?


Looked mainly at winner's, but where I was unsure, I looked deeper into bracket and depth to make determination of stronger by weight class. This is my best look and comparison.

WSAZ – 7
OVAC – 6
Toss-Up - 1

Weight: 106 – WSAZ
OVAC: Howard Williams, East Liverpool defeats Jace Stockett, University in close 3-2 match.
Jace Stockett barely defeated WSAZ Runner-Up Geno Cassucio, East Fairmont in 1 point match.
Amonn Ohl, St. Joseph fully controlled and pinned Geno Cassucio at WSAZ Finals.

Weight: 113 – OVAC
Much tougher analysis, but Brandon Holt defeated Blake Whorton in 4-0 match. Blake Whorton defeated #4 Placer Shawn Moore in low scoring match. With him placing 4th, edge has to go to OVAC.

Weight: 120 – WSAZ
WSAZ Runner-Up defeated OVAC Champion head to head on December 21, 2017

Weight: 126 – WSAZ
WSAZ Champion defeated both the OVAC Champion and the OVAC Runner-Up this season.

Weight: 132 – OVAC
WSAZ finals was closer match that runner-up had with OVAC Champion. Hall and Rea finals tough to overcome.

Weight: 138 – OVAC
This one a little tougher to narrow down, but OVAC Runner-Up tech falled WSAZ Runner-Up, Champions harder to compare.

Weight: 145 – WSAZ
Johnson, John Hardin high school is 2 x All-American and real deal. Alex Hart has incredible wins on the season and was no match for WSAZ Champion. Zeiders is competitive, but WSAZ had stronger field this year.

Weight: 152 – OVAC
Humphrey’s and Hubbard, same weight class. OVAC Stronger field. Humphrey’s dominated Harvey in December.

Weight: 160 – WSAZ
This one was close, but Hinzman and Gibson was a tight match in December. Since OVAC’s Hinzman has gotten win back over Carman. Smallwood, John Hardin is the better of the four.

Weight: 170 – WSAZ
Simpkins is tough, but the entire field at WSAZ were beating each other. The more competitive and stronger bracket. Simpkins may have won both, States may make me change my mind. We shall see.

Weight: 182 – WSAZ
This one as a whole is a toss-up, but I believe that WSAZ Champion has win over OVAC Champion. Lanham over Dunbar – if this is wrong let me know?

Weight: 195 – Toss-Up
I personally don’t know enough about the Ohio kids that were at the top of OVAC, so can’t compare with WSAZ top contenders. Someone else may have to weigh-in.

Weight: 220 – OVAC
To be the man, you have to beat the man. Until somebody proves otherwise, where Amos is, it was tougher.

Weight: 285 - OVAC
OVAC will get the edge with Haga taking third, but this is a close race, as some tell me that Porter and Haga will be a good battle, but will give edge to OVAC.


Good analysis. Hard to argue with you. Both being the same weekend it is hard to guess some of these. From what I am told the OVAC fans were treated with breathtaking ceremonies while the WSAZ fans got free boxing exhibitions with paid admission.

Called the stalls
Called the falls
Watched some brawls

JennyHannan
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby JennyHannan » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:48 pm

I'll weigh in on the OVAC/WSAZ 195-pound weight class. A match between Petersburg's Jackson Moomau (WSAZ) and Martins Ferry's Dalton Hoover (OVAC) would be one for the ages in my opinion. Most of us know how tough Moomau is. Hoover finished as an Ohio Division III state runner-up his sophomore year and finished 3rd last year. He's currently ranked #1 in Ohio Division III at 195. He defeated South's Justin Allman two straight years at the OVAC.

KDunbar
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby KDunbar » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:09 pm

I agree with Jenny. Anybody except Jackson Moomau and it hands down goes to Dalton Hoover. I haven't seen Jackson wrestle this year, up a few weight classes from last year, and quite honestly my experience is tainted by the only match I've seen him wrestle being his only loss in the past two years. I'm guessing it would be technique and strength against technique and speed. It's a shame as fans we can't just pay the wrestlers we want to get the matches we would like to see.

KDunbar
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:39 pm

Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby KDunbar » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:32 pm

Despite my last name, I do not know if Dunbar and Lanham have ever met in the past. I know it has not happened this year and not likely last year as they were at two different weight classes at the end of the year. Before that doesn't likely make much difference. I might suggest that for either of them the road to a state championship might have been easier at 195lb, with no disrespect to the wrestlers at that weight. Just a tip of the hat to the two of them. Saw Zane wrestling at 195lb at the Super 32 and have seen Drew all year long. Congratulations and good luck to both.

RickDunbar
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby RickDunbar » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:03 pm

Dunbar and Lanham have never wrestled. Many hours in the same gymnasiums.

Gator
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Location: South Parkersburg-Moderator WV Mat

Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby Gator » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:03 pm

I’m guessing your toss up would go to OVAC at 195. Hoover is a beast. 126 was a great match when the two met with a move that was questionable. I’d pay to see the dual!
Moderator WV Mat

vortexfan
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Re: Toughest Tournaments in WV

Postby vortexfan » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:15 pm

RickDunbar wrote:Dunbar and Lanham have never wrestled. Many hours in the same gymnasiums.


Two very solid wrestlers should be a good one to watch


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