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Looking for feedback from experienced Tournament Directors and officials.

We just had an incident with two kids colliding head to head. No fault, no penalty called. One kid perfectly fine - the other kid screams, grabs his head, staggers off the mat and lays flat for over 5 minutes. After the five minutes the kid gets up and is unsteady on his feet.
4 mats going at this point, but the attention of the tournament had focused on this situation.

The injured wrestler is determined by his coach (who is also a physician) that he is not concussed and is able to finish the match. The tournament had training staff who come to the area but were not permitted to check the wrestler.

The official of the match only makes inquiry to the wrestler’s coach, who in turn releases the wrestler to continue. Tournament Director is watching but remains uninvolved.

I thought a coach could not serve as team trainer/physician (for obvious conflict and liability reasons).

Any feedback from experienced wrestling folks?

Who did not allow the training staff to check the wrestler?

The tournament training staff walked over to the wrestler and the coach essentially said - I’m handling it and they did not participate further.

The coach, who you said is a physician can absolutely make that call.

GWFan wrote:Looking for feedback from experienced Tournament Directors and officials.

We just had an incident with two kids colliding head to head. No fault, no penalty called. One kid perfectly fine - the other kid screams, grabs his head, staggers off the mat and lays flat for over 5 minutes. After the five minutes the kid gets up and is unsteady on his feet.
4 mats going at this point, but the attention of the tournament had focused on this situation.

The injured wrestler is determined by his coach (who is also a physician) that he is not concussed and is able to finish the match. The tournament had training staff who come to the area but were not permitted to check the wrestler.

The official of the match only makes inquiry to the wrestler’s coach, who in turn releases the wrestler to continue. Tournament Director is watching but remains uninvolved.

I thought a coach could not serve as team trainer/physician (for obvious conflict and liability reasons).

Any feedback from experienced wrestling folks?

You might be thinking of NFL concussion protocol?

.

The trainer put him on concussion protocol not the coach. He used 3.47 of the 5 minutes protocol. If their is a MD in gym he can be asked. The trainer was smart enough to know he has way more experience then her.
So is the question.
1. Is it legal? Absolutely
2. Are you questioning the coach/doctors integrity ? Won’t even justify that.
3. Do you want a student trainer examining, or a orthopedic surgeon looking out for the kids? if it was my kid I know the answer.
4. A explanation was given at tournament by most experienced official in state. So this post makes me wonder
Good match, but in end can only be one winner.

Nothing to be shamed of and certainly nothing to try to sling mud on wall and see what sticks.
Chris Diserio
CW0441

I'm confessing ignorance and am way too lazy to research it, so I'm going to ask. Is there actually a 5 minute "concussion period" in addition to the 2 minute injury period and the 5 minute bleeding period? If not the the match would have been over after 2 minutes. The next question naturally is, who determines when the wrestler asks for time whether they are in the concussion period or the injury period? You see where I am going with this. The blow to the head could always occur earlier in the match and then later time stopped because of that. I'm not questioning anything regarding the match in question, just in general. However, what if another physician in attendance has a different opinion? Who determines who makes the decision? Also, are there rules regarding a concussion period, if it exist, for a recurrence during the match. The kid with the "headache" could still have it later in the match and what if they stop again to be reevaluated and are cleared again?

I personally think the HS's should adopt the collegiate protocol. There is no time limit on the evaluation of a concussed wrestler. The wrestler is evaluated completely without the concern of time and if deemed able to continue they can continue with no penalty.

Anthony was in a match this year where his opponent was possibly concussed. It took well over 10 minutes for him to return but he did return. He was taken from the mat and a complete concussion exam was done away from the competition area. Only medical staff were allowed to be with the wrestler when being evaluated.

It may seem excessive but with all the new data coming up about concussions, well worth it.
Also, there is no possibility of questionable procedures.

Just my 2 cents.

KDunbar wrote:I'm confessing ignorance and am way too lazy to research it, so I'm going to ask. Is there actually a 5 minute "concussion period" in addition to the 2 minute injury period and the 5 minute bleeding period? If not the the match would have been over after 2 minutes. The next question naturally is, who determines when the wrestler asks for time whether they are in the concussion period or the injury period? You see where I am going with this. The blow to the head could always occur earlier in the match and then later time stopped because of that. I'm not questioning anything regarding the match in question, just in general. However, what if another physician in attendance has a different opinion? Who determines who makes the decision? Also, are there rules regarding a concussion period, if it exist, for a recurrence during the match. The kid with the "headache" could still have it later in the match and what if they stop again to be reevaluated and are cleared again?

It's not necessarily for concussions, and it only extends the injury time to 5 minutes, so they are adding 3 minutes to the 2 minute injury time.The additional time is given to examine any head/neck injuries. In the absence of an appropriate health care professional ( so the trainers or a certified physician), all injuries are treated the same and use normal injury time. However, if an appropriate health care professional is there they can ask for the extra five minutes only if there is an injury to the head and neck involving the cervical column/nervous system. When the 5 minutes is up, they have to be immediately ready to continue without delay, otherwise it is a forfeit. So really there shouldn't be that minute long back and forth if he/she can continue, should be an immediate decision when the 5 is up. If there is a second occurrence in the match for the same head/neck injury involving the CC/NS or if there is a new injury involving them it is an immediate default. So to your final point, if the match needed stopped for his headache based on the previous head injury in the match, its an auto default. However in the rulebook there is a note that says if the 5 minute provision is used, time consumed for the injury will in no way affect time used or available for other types of injuries. So i would say if that 5 is used, and the wrestler rolls an ankle later in the match, he/she would still have 2 minutes injury. But i would need an actual ref to weigh in cause that is a little grey to me. Hope that cleared some things up!

I’m not questioning anyone’s integrity or slinging mud. This is way more important than wins and loses. I complimented the coach for taking his time and encouraging the kid to be safe first.

When dealing with head injuries it is a serious issue and the rules are constantly changing. I am a long time football coach and we have always been advised always err on the side of removing the kid or to stay out of head injury decision completely and I was simply inquiring whether that rule is in place or just a best practice. We have had an MD on our football staff and while he would administer care, he always remained neutral on “releasing” kids for any injury.

I certainly would rather an MD or Certified Trainer make the call over a student trainer, but that only begs the question of why it isn’t mandatory for tournaments to have qualified medical staff ready for incidents. We are currently fighting that fight in the southern part of the state - but, unfortunately, cost becomes a factor.

" It's not necessarily for concussions, and it only extends the injury time to 5 minutes, so they are adding 3 minutes to the 2 minute injury time.The additional time is given to examine any head/neck injuries. In the absence of an appropriate health care professional ( so the trainers or a certified physician), all injuries are treated the same and use normal injury time. However, if an appropriate health care professional is there they can ask for the extra five minutes only if there is an injury to the head and neck involving the cervical column/nervous system. When the 5 minutes is up, they have to be immediately ready to continue without delay, otherwise it is a forfeit. So really there shouldn't be that minute long back and forth if he/she can continue, should be an immediate decision when the 5 is up. If there is a second occurrence in the match for the same head/neck injury involving the CC/NS or if there is a new injury involving them it is an immediate default. So to your final point, if the match needed stopped for his headache based on the previous head injury in the match, its an auto default. However in the rulebook there is a note that says if the 5 minute provision is used, time consumed for the injury will in no way affect time used or available for other types of injuries. So i would say if that 5 is used, and the wrestler rolls an ankle later in the match, he/she would still have 2 minutes injury. But i would need an actual ref to weigh in cause that is a little grey to me. Hope that cleared some things up!"


You are spot on except the 2 minutes. That would be if it goes to recovery time. Injury time is 1 1/2 minutes.
The injury time would go back to zero and if he rolled ankle or anything else he has 1 1/2. However that is still his second injury time out and his/her opponent would get choice up, down or neutral.

Now think about this a wrestler could possibly use 11 and 1/2 minutes before he is disqualified from a match. This is today's Brian Teaser. Ask yourself how.

Is there a concussion protocol for refs? ive witnessed a few times that it looked some were concussed.

I think the moderators should ban Gator's post above. "forthekids" is a ref and has never looked concussed. Dazed and confused, but never concussed. However, I did see him one time use his entire 5 minutes of blood time, his entire 5 minutes of "concussed" time, and his entire 1 & 1/2 minutes of injury time and despite the 11 & 1/2 minutes he still made the wrong call.

KDunbar wrote:I think the moderators should ban Gator's post above. "forthekids" is a ref and has never looked concussed. Dazed and confused, but never concussed. However, I did see him one time use his entire 5 minutes of blood time, his entire 5 minutes of "concussed" time, and his entire 1 & 1/2 minutes of injury time and despite the 11 & 1/2 minutes he still made the wrong call.

we have a winner and I apologize I forgot to sign my name last post.

Don't want people to be think I run and hide behind screen names. After all it really is forthekids#

Chris Diserio
CW0441

forthekids wrote:

KDunbar wrote:I think the moderators should ban Gator's post above. "forthekids" is a ref and has never looked concussed. Dazed and confused, but never concussed. However, I did see him one time use his entire 5 minutes of blood time, his entire 5 minutes of "concussed" time, and his entire 1 & 1/2 minutes of injury time and despite the 11 & 1/2 minutes he still made the wrong call.

we have a winner and I apologize I forgot to sign my name last post.

Don't want people to be think I run and hide behind screen names. After all it really is forthekids#

Chris Diserio
CW0441

I knew Gator already knew who you were. We all do actually and never even thought about you not putting your moniker at the bottom. I was just trying to get him in trouble if I could. Thanks for the clarification.