wvmat.com

Is their a criteria for determining OW? I didn’t attend the tournament, I just poured through statistics, and watched what I could via WVMAT’s feed. I’m a statistical geek.
I see wrestlers going through a tournament pinning their way to the finals, then dominating their opponents in the finals.
I guess what I’m looking for here is there some context I’m missing from this award. Supposed to be the most dominant wrestler in their school’s classification AAA/AA/A. In the past it’s been multiple year returning champions, or some wrestlers that upset the #1 wrestler.
This year I understand AA and A but the AAA is not jumping out as dominant as the other two classifications. Is their something I’m missing from the Tournament that showed the dominance of their classification and or weight class. I compared 3 weight classes for this award. 175 -138 -157. I picked them because statistically they are similar rankings, seed, results.
The 138 champion wasn’t even picked to place in top 3, wasn’t in the top rankings at the end of the season, yet he won his weight class. That’s an outstanding wrestler. Being #1 in one’s weight class and winning that class isn’t outstanding it’s expected. I used 175 also to include another #1 ranked wrestlers going into tournament, he pinned his way to finals and dominated his opponent as he has all year, that was expected same as 157. What is outstanding about winning a tournament that you are pick to win?
I’m just looking for some clarity.
I’m certain that the 157lb wrestler is outstanding in his own right, there were better examples of outstanding “statistically” wrestler in this tournament. #5 wrestler in weight class, determined as one of toughest in AAA, goes on to Win said weight class. That wasn’t expected, making that outstanding.
#1 wrestler in weight class, pins way to finals, then wins a 3 point match in finals. Not sure why that’s outstanding
This is a forum, so for all that take my comments as hostile or degrading please understand these are my opinions based on statistics or results. I don’t have a child participating anymore nor do I compete. I love this sport and follow it extensively from Middle school up to Olympics.
This isn’t the only year I have had these opinions, just the first year I have commented on it.

I will repeat, I’m not bashing or downplaying the results, just pointing out some observations.

Go South

I agree with your post. The same for me, I don’t have a child wrestling this year and I coach MS. There’s no question in AA that the Price kid from Indy is an outstanding wrestler. Probably LB for LB best in AA. I’m agreeing that MOW should go to the wrestler that wrestled Outstanding. Perhaps a lower ranked wrestler that wrestled above and beyond expectations or perhaps a dominate wrestler that really showed us why he’s the man during the State Tourney! Since he chose AAA, I will choose AA. 2 wrestlers jump out to me that were expected to win, are dominate wrestlers, and there performance during tourney showed us why they are the man. That is Indy’s 106, and PPs 132. Both were very dominate. 1 of them 2 deserves the MOW based off being dominate. Someone that wrestled above expectations and overcame adversity was Indy’s 165. Just a Freshman, ranked 4th, beat the #1 & #2 ranked wrestlers during the state tourney, pinned the #1 ranked kid in finals, and doing this after being sidelined since WC with broken hand. Therefore he has a great argument for being MOW. Did anyone else beat the 1 and 2 ranked kids to win the Championship?

Of course this is all for fun, and I’m not taking anything away from the MOW winners, they are great wrestlers. I just agree MOW at a tourney is different than whose most dominant wrestlers in the state. Congrats to all.

This isn’t complicated. The coaches vote on it based on their own opinion of who was the most outstanding wrestler. Simple as that. If you fellas want a vote go become a coach and you will be able to vote based on whatever stats, metrics or theories you choose to adhere to.

guard0544 wrote:This isn’t complicated. The coaches vote on it based on their own opinion of who was the most outstanding wrestler. Simple as that. If you fellas want a vote go become a coach and you will be able to vote based on whatever stats, metrics or theories you choose to adhere to.

Somewhat hurtful

Doyablameme? wrote:

guard0544 wrote:This isn’t complicated. The coaches vote on it based on their own opinion of who was the most outstanding wrestler. Simple as that. If you fellas want a vote go become a coach and you will be able to vote based on whatever stats, metrics or theories you choose to adhere to.

Somewhat hurtful

Nothing hurtful about it. But under the guise of asking a question, looking for information on how these things are voted on, they are indirectly criticizing who was voted the most outstanding wrestler. That’s not cool.

The coaches vote and they know from how the season has gone who is or is not a good wrestler. Just because someone pins his way through his bracket does not necessarily make him MOW, it may have been a weak weight. But when someone wins a 1 pt decision in the finals in a very good weight! Simply put!

Regarding the Single A MOW, I would have thought Vandall of Greenbrier West would have been the selection and here is why:

1. He won the tournament.

2. He beat the #1 wrestler.

3. He avenged an earlier season loss in the finals.

4. He pinned in the finals and that scored enough points for his team to claim the team title.

5. He was the only Single A wrestler to win a state title this season.

Exactly Bearhugger… you seen what I did in AAA a clear underdog winning the title not expected or predicted that’s outstanding. Ranked #1 and winning your weight class expected not exceptional. I mentioned the pin your way through as an example of outstanding, that is in the statistical world. Where I based my entire post.
Thanks for answering my question of the methodology of determining Outstanding Wrestler.

As for hurtful, his opinions and his choices for words are his to type and make. Like I stated I don’t have a dog in the fight, I asked a question, it was answered. Little snarky comments from someone my question offended doesn’t bother me.

rodneyjwv wrote:As for hurtful, his opinions and his choices for words are his to type and make. Like I stated I don’t have a dog in the fight, I asked a question, it was answered. Little snarky comments from someone my question offended doesn’t bother me.

I gave you the accurate answer. The coaches vote by whatever measure each of them feel is appropriate. Obviously the majority of the coaches felt said wrestler was most outstanding.

I do not find anything you said offensive. But I do find it in poor taste to be openly critical on wvmat of a talented wrestlers selection.

guard0544 wrote:

rodneyjwv wrote:As for hurtful, his opinions and his choices for words are his to type and make. Like I stated I don’t have a dog in the fight, I asked a question, it was answered. Little snarky comments from someone my question offended doesn’t bother me.

I gave you the accurate answer. The coaches vote by whatever measure each of them feel is appropriate. Obviously the majority of the coaches felt said wrestler was most outstanding.

I do not find anything you said offensive. But I do find it in poor taste to be openly critical on wvmat of a talented wrestlers selection.

How long have you lived in Beckley ?

guard0544 wrote:

rodneyjwv wrote:As for hurtful, his opinions and his choices for words are his to type and make. Like I stated I don’t have a dog in the fight, I asked a question, it was answered. Little snarky comments from someone my question offended doesn’t bother me.

I gave you the accurate answer. The coaches vote by whatever measure each of them feel is appropriate. Obviously the majority of the coaches felt said wrestler was most outstanding.

I do not find anything you said offensive. But I do find it in poor taste to be openly critical on wvmat of a talented wrestlers selection.

I read everything that was written. I felt the question was raised and of course the original post was to say 'I disagree with the selection based on the criteria I would have used'. However, it was done in a good fashion without demeaning the wrestler who got the award and it was even stated that way. An opinion was given, and contrary to the way a lot of posts are worded, it was not stated as "if you disagree with me you are crazy". It was no more "not cool" or in "poor taste" than for you to demean the poster as being uncool or showing poor taste, obviously in my opinion (which may be uncool).

The point that should have been raised, to correct the premise of the original post, was that by no means was the outcome (statistically speaking) at 157 even remotely simply a wrestler that was supposed to win, merely winning as expected. This was the rubber match between these two and the #1 ranking was solely the wrestler who had won the most recent match. Whatever the outcome, no upset or unexpected outcome was going to happen (except, correctly so, in the mind of the losing wrestler and his coaches). This was a great match between two excellent wrestlers. And it did make for a good Father/Son (I'm assuming) picture.

Imo Jesse Adam's had at minimum the most impressive performance of the tournament. I understand the story lines etc but who else came in ranked 6th as a freshman in a senior dominant weight class and took out the 1 and 2 ranked wrestler? That showing had style and class

mattman wrote:Imo Jesse Adam's had at minimum the most impressive performance of the tournament. I understand the story lines etc but who else came in ranked 6th as a freshman in a senior dominant weight class and took out the 1 and 2 ranked wrestler? That showing had style and class

Haven't you learned anything? By expressing that opinion you have just slighted the other wrestler, which in not cool and in poor taste because you obviously have an ulterior motive behind your comments. Your opinion is worthless as it is an award given by the coaches using the criteria they deem fitting (which actually is correct, but somehow saying it that way also seems to diminish the award). Obviously, what I'm saying is called a sarcastic comment. He, as well as others, would indeed be a worthy candidate.

Guard0544 please attempt to call me out while hiding behind a screen name or avatar. It’s obvious you disagree, but to continue to push this subject just shows your maturity.
Thanks To those that understood my post and didn’t take offense. This is a forum for ideas and opinions, if you have an opinion or feedback to someone else’s comments. Very simple concept. I’m from a generation that stands up for their word and actions. We put our Names to our words or opinions, these nameless comments are just as worthy as the Avatars making them.

KDunbar wrote:

mattman wrote:Imo Jesse Adam's had at minimum the most impressive performance of the tournament. I understand the story lines etc but who else came in ranked 6th as a freshman in a senior dominant weight class and took out the 1 and 2 ranked wrestler? That showing had style and class

Haven't you learned anything? By expressing that opinion you have just slighted the other wrestler, which in not cool and in poor taste because you obviously have an ulterior motive behind your comments. Your opinion is worthless as it is an award given by the coaches using the criteria they deem fitting (which actually is correct, but somehow saying it that way also seems to diminish the award). Obviously, what I'm saying is called a sarcastic comment. He, as well as others, would indeed be a worthy candidate.

That is why I used impressive performance lol

rodneyjwv wrote:Guard0544 please attempt to call me out while hiding behind a screen name or avatar. It’s obvious you disagree, but to continue to push this subject just shows your maturity.
Thanks To those that understood my post and didn’t take offense. This is a forum for ideas and opinions, if you have an opinion or feedback to someone else’s comments. Very simple concept. I’m from a generation that stands up for their word and actions. We put our Names to our words or opinions, these nameless comments are just as worthy as the Avatars making them.

I still hold its in poor taste to come on here the day after the tournament and criticize who was selected most outstanding wrestler. You can couch it as posing a question and throw in “I’m not bashing or downplaying the results…BUT…” In my opinion you were doing just that, while trying really hard to make it look like you weren’t because even you know that would be in poor taste. Maybe it’s the timing of it for me. Some other posters obviously see it differently than I do. So, maybe it’s just me. I’ll move on from the topic, and wish you well.

- Steve Rhodes

I was curious about the selection process too. If I were voting on the most outstanding wrestler in Single A to have not won in the championship match I would have gone with Curran from Doddridge County. He won his first two matches by major decision, and only lost the championship in overtime. It was a great match. He also has a win over the #1 kid in AAA earlier in the year. My second pick would the Greenbrier West 215 Vandall. He had to win with a pin to earn his team the Single A Championship, and he did just that. Pretty good argument for Noah Hess at 120. He absolutely dominated his way into the Championship, then beat the #1 kid in the coaches polls. I'm not a coach, but watched the same tournament everyone else did.

guard0544 wrote:

rodneyjwv wrote:Guard0544 please attempt to call me out while hiding behind a screen name or avatar. It’s obvious you disagree, but to continue to push this subject just shows your maturity.
Thanks To those that understood my post and didn’t take offense. This is a forum for ideas and opinions, if you have an opinion or feedback to someone else’s comments. Very simple concept. I’m from a generation that stands up for their word and actions. We put our Names to our words or opinions, these nameless comments are just as worthy as the Avatars making them.

I still hold its in poor taste to come on here the day after the tournament and criticize who was selected most outstanding wrestler. You can couch it as posing a question and throw in “I’m not bashing or downplaying the results…BUT…” In my opinion you were doing just that, while trying really hard to make it look like you weren’t because even you know that would be in poor taste. Maybe it’s the timing of it for me. Some other posters obviously see it differently than I do. So, maybe it’s just me. I’ll move on from the topic, and wish you well.

- Steve Rhodes

Well said Steve ! And good luck to you and the WW program next year !!

rodneyjwv wrote:Guard0544 please attempt to call me out while hiding behind a screen name or avatar. It’s obvious you disagree, but to continue to push this subject just shows your maturity.
Thanks To those that understood my post and didn’t take offense. This is a forum for ideas and opinions, if you have an opinion or feedback to someone else’s comments. Very simple concept. I’m from a generation that stands up for their word and actions. We put our Names to our words or opinions, these nameless comments are just as worthy as the Avatars making them.

My friend, please understand that things change, whether you stick to your old school ways or not. This new generation finds internet conversation about children to be in poor taste. I tend to agree with them. Please get with the times.

Congratulate the winners and move on. Have some class. And a good day.

For what’s it worth … the best wrestler in the entire tournament was obviously South’s 175

Against my better judgment, I'm going to reply to this post, mostly because i'll be posting a text that Bill Archer sent to me.

First of all, I don't want to take ANYTHING away from the three coaches and the three young men who won the awards. I genuinely like and admire all three coaches, and the three young men who won were very gracious and polite.

There are several factors that decide who wins each award and by how many votes. I spent enough years producing beauty pageants and tallying Miss Congeniality votes that I can tell you it's a rare occurrence when the vote is determined by a landslide. And several years, there were a number of individuals who received votes, and the winner won by 1 vote. I have no idea if that was the case this year's state wrestling tournament, and I don't care to speculate. The winners were the winners, and that's final.

Also, I would bet money that not every coach in the state votes. If participation in coaches' polls on the forum is any indication, the participation could be low! LOL.

And one more thing. Some coaches vote before all of the weight classes are wrestled or before the final points are put on the board.

So now that I've added my thoughts, I'm going to post a text from Bill Archer. This text is verbatim. I've not modified or removed anything.

Thoughts from a old guy - Bill Archer
The outstanding wrestler award-my wife handles the giving out of the ballots and makes sure only one vote per team (several teams try and pick up extra ballots either on purpose or not)
They are given to Wvssac and they have them counted. I am not a fan of this award. It is better for me if everyone leaves a champion.
No one seems to notice we do not give out ow at wsaz tournament.
Mainly because years ago a coach voted for a wrestler on his team that didn’t win.
I thought that he misunderstood the award, but he told me he would not vote for someone on another team?!?
When someone tells us someone is not wrestling, that is the end of the conversation, we do not ask for any more information.
If we don’t continue to call for ballots to be picket up, some time there are a very small number of votes. I would say it is more important to the fans than coaches.
The Dutton award came about when a Parkersburg school didn’t like who won the outstanding wrestler award.
Enough said.
Hope u guys enjoyed your time in Huntington.
Bill

Now he's opened up a whole new can of worms (or should I say, opened up an old can).
Cetainly Parkersburg Catholic will now be receiving a lot of grief.

admin wrote:Against my better judgment, I'm going to reply to this post, mostly because i'll be posting a text that Bill Archer sent to me.

First of all, I don't want to take ANYTHING away from the three coaches and the three young men who won the awards. I genuinely like and admire all three coaches, and the three young men who won were very gracious and polite.

There are several factors that decide who wins each award and by how many votes. I spent enough years producing beauty pageants and tallying Miss Congeniality votes that I can tell you it's a rare occurrence when the vote is determined by a landslide. And several years, there were a number of individuals who received votes, and the winner won by 1 vote. I have no idea if that was the case this year's state wrestling tournament, and I don't care to speculate. The winners were the winners, and that's final.

Also, I would bet money that not every coach in the state votes. If participation in coaches' polls on the forum is any indication, the participation could be low! LOL.

And one more thing. Some coaches vote before all of the weight classes are wrestled or before the final points are put on the board.

So now that I've added my thoughts, I'm going to post a text from Bill Archer. This text is verbatim. I've not modified or removed anything.

Thoughts from a old guy - Bill Archer
The outstanding wrestler award-my wife handles the giving out of the ballots and makes sure only one vote per team (several teams try and pick up extra ballots either on purpose or not)
They are given to Wvssac and they have them counted. I am not a fan of this award. It is better for me if everyone leaves a champion.
No one seems to notice we do not give out ow at wsaz tournament.
Mainly because years ago a coach voted for a wrestler on his team that didn’t win.
I thought that he misunderstood the award, but he told me he would not vote for someone on another team?!?
When someone tells us someone is not wrestling, that is the end of the conversation, we do not ask for any more information.
If we don’t continue to call for ballots to be picket up, some time there are a very small number of votes. I would say it is more important to the fans than coaches.
The Dutton award came about when a Parkersburg school didn’t like who won the outstanding wrestler award.
Enough said.
Hope u guys enjoyed your time in Huntington.
Bill

One thing I'd take away from the above has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. If the plan is to continue with the seperation of a "clear #1 and #2" at the state tournament, then the weight being given to the coaches poll here on WVMAT has to take into account the very limited number of coaches whose opinion apparently is being expressed in this poll. I'm not saying the poll is way off, just that we as fans may have to realize the coaches who gather at state tournament time are likely not "bound" by this poll's rankings at all. Indeed, I believe it actually did work that way this year (at least in AAA where I was looking). To repeat, I'm guessing (unless the coaches poll participation changes drastically) that as fans we cannot simply look at the poll and assume this was used as the measure of a clear #1 and #2.

KDunbar wrote:

admin wrote:Against my better judgment, I'm going to reply to this post, mostly because i'll be posting a text that Bill Archer sent to me.

First of all, I don't want to take ANYTHING away from the three coaches and the three young men who won the awards. I genuinely like and admire all three coaches, and the three young men who won were very gracious and polite.

There are several factors that decide who wins each award and by how many votes. I spent enough years producing beauty pageants and tallying Miss Congeniality votes that I can tell you it's a rare occurrence when the vote is determined by a landslide. And several years, there were a number of individuals who received votes, and the winner won by 1 vote. I have no idea if that was the case this year's state wrestling tournament, and I don't care to speculate. The winners were the winners, and that's final.

Also, I would bet money that not every coach in the state votes. If participation in coaches' polls on the forum is any indication, the participation could be low! LOL.

And one more thing. Some coaches vote before all of the weight classes are wrestled or before the final points are put on the board.

So now that I've added my thoughts, I'm going to post a text from Bill Archer. This text is verbatim. I've not modified or removed anything.

Thoughts from a old guy - Bill Archer
The outstanding wrestler award-my wife handles the giving out of the ballots and makes sure only one vote per team (several teams try and pick up extra ballots either on purpose or not)
They are given to Wvssac and they have them counted. I am not a fan of this award. It is better for me if everyone leaves a champion.
No one seems to notice we do not give out ow at wsaz tournament.
Mainly because years ago a coach voted for a wrestler on his team that didn’t win.
I thought that he misunderstood the award, but he told me he would not vote for someone on another team?!?
When someone tells us someone is not wrestling, that is the end of the conversation, we do not ask for any more information.
If we don’t continue to call for ballots to be picket up, some time there are a very small number of votes. I would say it is more important to the fans than coaches.
The Dutton award came about when a Parkersburg school didn’t like who won the outstanding wrestler award.
Enough said.
Hope u guys enjoyed your time in Huntington.
Bill

One thing I'd take away from the above has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. If the plan is to continue with the seperation of a "clear #1 and #2" at the state tournament, then the weight being given to the coaches poll here on WVMAT has to take into account the very limited number of coaches whose opinion apparently is being expressed in this poll. I'm not saying the poll is way off, just that we as fans may have to realize the coaches who gather at state tournament time are likely not "bound" by this poll's rankings at all. Indeed, I believe it actually did work that way this year (at least in AAA where I was looking). To repeat, I'm guessing (unless the coaches poll participation changes drastically) that as fans we cannot simply look at the poll and assume this was used as the measure of a clear #1 and #2.

Those deciding whether to separate one and two did their own evaluation of who 1 and 2 were, and whether it was clear. So the polls were a tool for them but they were not bound by it. Those making the decisions were some of the coaches who are very aware of the state-wide landscape so it worked out.

FYI Pennsylvania OWs awarded yesterday at state tournament.

PIAA AA OW- Freshman Adam Waters (FCA) 172 lbs

PIAA AAA OW- Soph Kollin Rath (BECAHI) 139 lbs

Statingtheobvious, no I will not get with the times! I wasn’t criticizing any wrestlers in my post, for all of those that assumed that shame on you. I asked for and received and answer for my question, everything thing else is read into it or assumed I was bashing some athlete or their school or some coach. I used examples of different classes and weights, from different schools. Someone will always find arguments or insults in comments made on forums, regardless if they exist or not. That being said, didn’t intend on offending anyone with my question, if you took offense you misread my comment. I’m not apologizing for something I didn’t say or do. As for timing of the comment, when else would be relevant to ask this question?