Video Challenge

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Bearhugger
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:14 am

Video Challenge

Postby Bearhugger » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:15 pm

We have all attended some big tournaments where you can challenge a call through watching a video replay. I have seen missed calls overturned at NHSCA and Super 32.

After last night, it is time to consider using video replay at least for the state finals. There is video of a match all over Facebook that clearly shows something different than the final outcome.

Getting matches right is much more important than worrying about a coach wearing a hat in the corner.
Holy smokes. Braxton Amos works out with a landmine now!!!!!!

PSFan
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:53 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby PSFan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:55 pm

Could not agree more

hollywood
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:39 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby hollywood » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:04 pm

Absolutely! It’s horrible to see someone’s dreams get demolished because of a handful of bad referees, all while having the evidence to back it up!

Bearhugger
Posts: 5078
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Re: Video Challenge

Postby Bearhugger » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:17 pm

hollywood wrote:Absolutely! It’s horrible to see someone’s dreams get demolished because of a handful of bad referees, all while having the evidence to back it up!


If the rumor I heard becomes reality, by God there won't be any hats in the corners next season. Lets tackle the easy stuff (and trivial) and ignore the hard stuff.
Holy smokes. Braxton Amos works out with a landmine now!!!!!!

aaacoach90
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:19 am

Re: Video Challenge

Postby aaacoach90 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:36 pm

Bearhugger wrote:
hollywood wrote:Absolutely! It’s horrible to see someone’s dreams get demolished because of a handful of bad referees, all while having the evidence to back it up!


If the rumor I heard becomes reality, by God there won't be any hats in the corners next season. Lets tackle the easy stuff (and trivial) and ignore the hard stuff.



What are you saying with no hats? No coach's in the corners?

jofus
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:22 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby jofus » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:55 pm

So, are you going to push for the same in football? Basketball? Tennis? Etc?

Only in the states? What about the regionals?

Whose video camera do you use? State provided cameras? How much would we have to pay per session then? Because I'm sure $8 times 5 sessions wouldn't cover it.

You would probably need at least 3 cameras per mat. Plus, who makes the final call?

Just pointing out a few problems with the idea to think about. Carry on :-)

mscoach23
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby mscoach23 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:20 pm

Why would we need 3 cameras? No one else uses 3, I think one would be plenty.

phsnate
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:55 pm
Location: Parkersburg, WV

Re: Video Challenge

Postby phsnate » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:46 pm

I agree with having the cameras and he is correct you would need more than 1. You would have to have at least two. I would have at least one on each side of the mat to ensure accuracy of the call. You may not be able to see whether it was a takedown or not if you're looking at the back far side of what happened, but if you had two cameras. The 2nd camera would have a better shot of what happened. Just like in football, does one single shot/view show you exactly what happened or is there always that best shot that shows you?

jofus
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:22 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby jofus » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:52 pm

No one else uses more than one? In the ncaa they only have one camera angle for replays?

Again, what about other sports? I know this is a wrestling board, but I doubt the ssac (or anyone unbiased) would promote it in wrestling only.

WrestlingFan1
Posts: 106
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Re: Video Challenge

Postby WrestlingFan1 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:53 pm

Be awaste of time, the refs would disagree with the videos and Callen would agree with them.

pin2win
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:22 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby pin2win » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 pm

All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!

aacoach61
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:34 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby aacoach61 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:19 pm

I’m sure instant replay is workable for WVSSAC wrestling, but it has ruined NFL and college football games for me by dragging them out ad nauseum.

I believe that 100% of the time the top refs at the high school tournament want to get it right and could care less which wrestler wins. The real solution is to teach coaches the rules and how to communicate at the scorer’s table and, more importantly, to teach referees how to listen and admit they are wrong.

Every time I used to ask for a conference at the scorer’s table, the referee (who admittedly was usually right) would give me a dirty look like “how dare you challenge me.” The referee needs to realize that a challenge isn’t personal, it’s business, and on occasion they are wrong. That attitude alone goes a long way in correcting problems while there is still time.

wrestlingfan23202
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:48 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby wrestlingfan23202 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:19 pm

pin2win wrote:All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!



Exactly!!! If the score was wrong. Still debatable. But then they knew what the score was and what he needed to do. He lost. Woody did an outstanding job.... great stall call and he did great he can’t help if his scoring official screwed up. I’ve seen Indy fans complaining so much but you know if it happened to Ward they would be okay with it

coach_williams
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Re: Video Challenge

Postby coach_williams » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:18 pm

pin2win wrote:All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!


The problem is it is not that simple. When a ref refuses to award a takedown even when it clearly is, the wrestler is out of luck. Likewise, when a takedown is awarded when everyone watch can see it clearly is not, the wrestler is out of luck. When a ref gets down on the mat and literally stares at a wrestlers shoulders flat on the mat, but doesn't call the pin, the wrestler is out of luck.

I agree 100% that a camera and challenge system needs to be in place at states.

As for the question of who makes the review and call, that is simple. The head of officiating for the state needs to be there and he needs to have two experienced wrestling officials who are not working the tournament otherwise join him in a 3-person panel that reviews the challenges and makes the decision. In fact, perhaps the two other officials should be retired refs who have no investment in friendship with the current refs.

mscoach4
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Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:00 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby mscoach4 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:22 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMCZWr4 ... e=youtu.be
.
The phantom unexplained point,,,,, I agree with you on this one Bearhugger ,,,, human error should be correctable through video replay ,,,,

Bearhugger
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:14 am

Re: Video Challenge

Postby Bearhugger » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:25 am

aacoach61 wrote:I’m sure instant replay is workable for WVSSAC wrestling, but it has ruined NFL and college football games for me by dragging them out ad nauseum.

I believe that 100% of the time the top refs at the high school tournament want to get it right and could care less which wrestler wins. The real solution is to teach coaches the rules and how to communicate at the scorer’s table and, more importantly, to teach referees how to listen and admit they are wrong.

Every time I used to ask for a conference at the scorer’s table, the referee (who admittedly was usually right) would give me a dirty look like “how dare you challenge me.” The referee needs to realize that a challenge isn’t personal, it’s business, and on occasion they are wrong. That attitude alone goes a long way in correcting problems while there is still time.


Correction, with all due respect. The NFL got ruined due to all of the kneeling during the National Anthem. Although I am not a diehard football fan, I have always watched the Super Bowl. This year I skipped it.
Holy smokes. Braxton Amos works out with a landmine now!!!!!!

Bearhugger
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:14 am

Re: Video Challenge

Postby Bearhugger » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:26 am

mscoach4 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMCZWr4cPVw&feature=youtu.be
.
The phantom unexplained point,,,,, I agree with you on this one Bearhugger ,,,, human error should be correctable through video replay ,,,,


Call the stall, call the fall...........make mistakes, correct them all.
Holy smokes. Braxton Amos works out with a landmine now!!!!!!

Bearhugger
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:14 am

Re: Video Challenge

Postby Bearhugger » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:31 am

coach_williams wrote:
pin2win wrote:All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!


The problem is it is not that simple. When a ref refuses to award a takedown even when it clearly is, the wrestler is out of luck. Likewise, when a takedown is awarded when everyone watch can see it clearly is not, the wrestler is out of luck. When a ref gets down on the mat and literally stares at a wrestlers shoulders flat on the mat, but doesn't call the pin, the wrestler is out of luck.

I agree 100% that a camera and challenge system needs to be in place at states.

As for the question of who makes the review and call, that is simple. The head of officiating for the state needs to be there and he needs to have two experienced wrestling officials who are not working the tournament otherwise join him in a 3-person panel that reviews the challenges and makes the decision. In fact, perhaps the two other officials should be retired refs who have no investment in friendship with the current refs.


The problem was very simple. The ref awarded points. The scorer's table came up with a "phantom point" and added one too many. Both refs didn't appear to notice the score despite the assistant ref holding up his fingers indicating 5 to 2.

On another topic, a friend of mine said today that if he did something wrong at work and his employer had it on video, then he would be in trouble.

There is video. At least fix the mistake.
Holy smokes. Braxton Amos works out with a landmine now!!!!!!

mscoach4
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:00 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby mscoach4 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:46 am

I have also seen a picture of the bout sheet that does not have the phantom point on it so I am assuming the person on the scoreclock is the one that put the phantom point up. Isn't the bout sheet the legal binding score? The score display is just for the fans,, correct? Even In middle school I have seen similar mistakes corrected many times,,,,This was a WV state championship match,, and it wasn't corrected? Is there more to this story? This one is a real head scratcher.
.
On another note,,, why do we have assistant refs if we are going to ignore their input?

kvnfarley
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:18 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby kvnfarley » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:31 am

Watch table workers don’t watch the match see if anyone of them seem to be distracted. Who were they?

Truesouthfaninhunt
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:17 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby Truesouthfaninhunt » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:23 am

Bearhugger wrote:
aacoach61 wrote:I’m sure instant replay is workable for WVSSAC wrestling, but it has ruined NFL and college football games for me by dragging them out ad nauseum.

I believe that 100% of the time the top refs at the high school tournament want to get it right and could care less which wrestler wins. The real solution is to teach coaches the rules and how to communicate at the scorer’s table and, more importantly, to teach referees how to listen and admit they are wrong.

Every time I used to ask for a conference at the scorer’s table, the referee (who admittedly was usually right) would give me a dirty look like “how dare you challenge me.” The referee needs to realize that a challenge isn’t personal, it’s business, and on occasion they are wrong. That attitude alone goes a long way in correcting problems while there is still time.


Correction, with all due respect. The NFL got ruined due to all of the kneeling during the National Anthem. Although I am not a diehard football fan, I have always watched the Super Bowl. This year I skipped it.


“ ruined” ? Just because YOU “skipped” the SB? Are you the universal barometer of NFL popularity? :lol:

Man2man
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:52 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby Man2man » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:47 pm

After speaking with Mr Ryan at wvsac. It appears they will be putting a third referee for championship matches! This is happening because of the mistake made that kept Alex Hart from being the State Champ.

mscoach20
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:05 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby mscoach20 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:59 am

Bearhugger wrote:
coach_williams wrote:
pin2win wrote:All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!


The problem is it is not that simple. When a ref refuses to award a takedown even when it clearly is, the wrestler is out of luck. Likewise, when a takedown is awarded when everyone watch can see it clearly is not, the wrestler is out of luck. When a ref gets down on the mat and literally stares at a wrestlers shoulders flat on the mat, but doesn't call the pin, the wrestler is out of luck.

I agree 100% that a camera and challenge system needs to be in place at states.

As for the question of who makes the review and call, that is simple. The head of officiating for the state needs to be there and he needs to have two experienced wrestling officials who are not working the tournament otherwise join him in a 3-person panel that reviews the challenges and makes the decision. In fact, perhaps the two other officials should be retired refs who have no investment in friendship with the current refs.


The problem was very simple. The ref awarded points. The scorer's table came up with a "phantom point" and added one too many. Both refs didn't appear to notice the score despite the assistant ref holding up his fingers indicating 5 to 2.

On another topic, a friend of mine said today that if he did something wrong at work and his employer had it on video, then he would be in trouble.

There is video. At least fix the mistake.


Poster on other thread made great point. Who is to say Ward don’t hit a nice throw or be way more aggressive after takedown being down 2? Can’t take away his win because a different score creates different urgency. I feel it’s unfortunate a mistake was made...but you can’t over turn it due to circumstances being created due to mistake. Plus...he ultimately finished on a pretty impressive run of points. Sucks, I’m sure. But, end of the day, he did finish strong.
Tench

WP1992
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:39 am

Re: Video Challenge

Postby WP1992 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:41 am

So you believe that the Winfield wrestler would have been more aggressive down 2 points with 10 seconds left than being down 1 point????? The problem with this situation is that it was not a judgment call, it was a blatant mistake that a entire group of people, including the Winfield coaches, could have made right and they didn't. And because of their inactions, both kids are penalized. Even though the Winfield wrestler had his hand raised, I am sure this is not an easy situation for him either.

guard0544
Posts: 465
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:39 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby guard0544 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:58 am

WP1992 wrote:So you believe that the Winfield wrestler would have been more aggressive down 2 points with 10 seconds left than being down 1 point????? The problem with this situation is that it was not a judgment call, it was a blatant mistake that a entire group of people, including the Winfield coaches, could have made right and they didn't. And because of their inactions, both kids are penalized. Even though the Winfield wrestler had his hand raised, I am sure this is not an easy situation for him either.


10 seconds remaining would not be the point in the match to consider. It would be the point where the score was first incorrectly reflected...early in the 3rd period. Would you wrestle more aggressively knowing you were down by 3 points? As opposed to thinking a single take down would tie it up? I would. But its all hypothetical...we dont know what a wrestler would have done differently. Its unfortunate the error occurred.

Bearhugger
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:14 am

Re: Video Challenge

Postby Bearhugger » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:56 am

guard0544 wrote:
WP1992 wrote:So you believe that the Winfield wrestler would have been more aggressive down 2 points with 10 seconds left than being down 1 point????? The problem with this situation is that it was not a judgment call, it was a blatant mistake that a entire group of people, including the Winfield coaches, could have made right and they didn't. And because of their inactions, both kids are penalized. Even though the Winfield wrestler had his hand raised, I am sure this is not an easy situation for him either.


10 seconds remaining would not be the point in the match to consider. It would be the point where the score was first incorrectly reflected...early in the 3rd period. Would you wrestle more aggressively knowing you were down by 3 points? As opposed to thinking a single take down would tie it up? I would. But its all hypothetical...we dont know what a wrestler would have done differently. Its unfortunate the error occurred.


The people who are focusing on the hypothetical situations are doing so to deflect attention away from the facts. The facts are the facts. This is what should be focused on.
Holy smokes. Braxton Amos works out with a landmine now!!!!!!

ringworm14
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:02 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby ringworm14 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:34 pm

Bearhugger wrote:
guard0544 wrote:
WP1992 wrote:So you believe that the Winfield wrestler would have been more aggressive down 2 points with 10 seconds left than being down 1 point????? The problem with this situation is that it was not a judgment call, it was a blatant mistake that a entire group of people, including the Winfield coaches, could have made right and they didn't. And because of their inactions, both kids are penalized. Even though the Winfield wrestler had his hand raised, I am sure this is not an easy situation for him either.


10 seconds remaining would not be the point in the match to consider. It would be the point where the score was first incorrectly reflected...early in the 3rd period. Would you wrestle more aggressively knowing you were down by 3 points? As opposed to thinking a single take down would tie it up? I would. But its all hypothetical...we dont know what a wrestler would have done differently. Its unfortunate the error occurred.


The people who are focusing on the hypothetical situations are doing so to deflect attention away from the facts. The facts are the facts. This is what should be focused on.


Agreed. Fact: Ward won the state title.

“Watch out for the ringworm!”

DWM
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby DWM » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:43 pm

ringworm14 wrote:
Bearhugger wrote:
guard0544 wrote:
10 seconds remaining would not be the point in the match to consider. It would be the point where the score was first incorrectly reflected...early in the 3rd period. Would you wrestle more aggressively knowing you were down by 3 points? As opposed to thinking a single take down would tie it up? I would. But its all hypothetical...we dont know what a wrestler would have done differently. Its unfortunate the error occurred.


The people who are focusing on the hypothetical situations are doing so to deflect attention away from the facts. The facts are the facts. This is what should be focused on.


Agreed. Fact: Ward won the state title.

“Watch out for the ringworm!”
WV Mat Moderator

Disagree, Ward was incorrectly awarded the win, he DID NOT win it.

Bearhugger
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:14 am

Re: Video Challenge

Postby Bearhugger » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:37 pm

DWM wrote:
ringworm14 wrote:
Bearhugger wrote:
The people who are focusing on the hypothetical situations are doing so to deflect attention away from the facts. The facts are the facts. This is what should be focused on.


Agreed. Fact: Ward won the state title.

“Watch out for the ringworm!”
WV Mat Moderator

Disagree, Ward was incorrectly awarded the win, he DID NOT win it.


I wonder what the opinions of the two officials and the two table scorers are now?
Holy smokes. Braxton Amos works out with a landmine now!!!!!!

DWM
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Video Challenge

Postby DWM » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:58 pm

Bearhugger wrote:
DWM wrote:
ringworm14 wrote:
Agreed. Fact: Ward won the state title.

“Watch out for the ringworm!”
WV Mat Moderator

Disagree, Ward was incorrectly awarded the win, he DID NOT win it.


I wonder what the opinions of the two officials and the two table scorers are now?

Well at least we know what the state rules interpreters opinion is "not your kid why do you care."


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