AAA 120 Travesty of Competition

[Bearhugger]

Out of the seven schools in AAA region 2, I can only account for three wrestlers at 120lbs. None of them are ranked in the top 10. We need four wrestlers or we will have a bye at the state tournament.

On the other hand, I can account for FIVE ranked wrestlers in AAA region 4 at 120lbs. #1, #3, #4, #7 and #9.

Summary:

Region 2: Three unranked wrestlers are GUARANTEED a trip to the state tournament as of February 5th, 2017.

Region 4: Five ranked wrestlers plus a possible two more 120 pounders only know that they have a battle ahead of them come February 18th, 2017. At least one ranked wrestler cannot qualify...................no matter what.

This requires immediate action by the Board of Wrestling Coaches.

[aaacoach89]

Bearhugger, it was nice to finally put a face to the name and meet you at the MSAC this weekend. I appreciate your posts and the way you are trying to bring things to the table that will improve this great sport in WV.

[coach_williams]

You are correct. Spring Mills, Martinsburg and Jefferson have no 120. My question is what do you expect someone to do about it? What is the "fix" that you want? There are no JV 120 wrestlers to move into those open spots on those teams. I assume those teams also have no JV 113 they could bump up (I know Spring Mills does not) or I assume they would have done it. The only possible fix I see is to eliminate the regions all together and take the top 16 to states, but we know that isn't going to happen this year.

[aaacoach89]

You are correct. Spring Mills, Martinsburg and Jefferson have no 120. My question is what do you expect someone to do about it? What is the "fix" that you want? There are no JV 120 wrestlers to move into those open spots on those teams. I assume those teams also have no JV 113 they could bump up (I know Spring Mills does not) or I assume they would have done it. The only possible fix I see is to eliminate the regions all together and take the top 16 to states, but we know that isn't going to happen this year.

Coaching at a school that does not have a full line up, we are absent 3 weight classes, I understand what you are saying. I know that we recruit from the football team, during football season, our kids talk up the sport to their friends, heck......I even talk to kids that get into some trouble with behavior, grades, or attendance to sell them on the idea of the discipline in wrestling helping them out in other areas of their life. Sometimes it just doesn't pan out. However, I think that the solution to prevent byes at the state tournament is to take 5th place finishers out of Regions that have more than the 4, and fill the spots. Is that a perfect solution? Probably not, but it fills the spots with kids that can wrestle. This is something that COULD be done this year, and solve the problem until a better solution is settled on in the future. Region IV has 5 ranked, in the top 10, kids at this weight class. 1 of them will be sitting at home after Regionals.......while there is a bye/forfeit given at the State Tournament. That is ridiculous!!

[coach_williams]

You are correct. Spring Mills, Martinsburg and Jefferson have no 120. My question is what do you expect someone to do about it? What is the "fix" that you want? There are no JV 120 wrestlers to move into those open spots on those teams. I assume those teams also have no JV 113 they could bump up (I know Spring Mills does not) or I assume they would have done it. The only possible fix I see is to eliminate the regions all together and take the top 16 to states, but we know that isn't going to happen this year.

Coaching at a school that does not have a full line up, we are absent 3 weight classes, I understand what you are saying. I know that we recruit from the football team, during football season, our kids talk up the sport to their friends, heck......I even talk to kids that get into some trouble with behavior, grades, or attendance to sell them on the idea of the discipline in wrestling helping them out in other areas of their life. Sometimes it just doesn't pan out. However, I think that the solution to prevent byes at the state tournament is to take 5th place finishers out of Regions that have more than the 4, and fill the spots. Is that a perfect solution? Probably not, but it fills the spots with kids that can wrestle. This is something that COULD be done this year, and solve the problem until a better solution is settled on in the future. Region IV has 5 ranked, in the top 10, kids at this weight class. 1 of them will be sitting at home after Regionals.......while there is a bye/forfeit given at the State Tournament. That is ridiculous!!

I see no issue with doing that this year and finding a long-term solution next year, I just don't think it will happen considering how close we are to regionals and states.

[Crusty1]

If there is going to be a bye, why not take a 5th place finisher from another region? We pull a pill for the bracket selection, why not pull a pill to see what region the 5th place finisher comes from? Easy, safe, fair and cost effective!

[vortexfan]

Thought there may be a post that's says it's been like this for years why this year is there so much uproar?

Regions need changed, have two of them North and South possibly with JVs, probably wouldn't be byes in the states then.

[aacoach75]

8 man bracket would eliminate byes...but would be best for now to get in the top 4 in your region....that's the road to Huntington.

[RWWS]

Vortex you beat me to it but I agree why the complaining now?

[RWWS]

Actually I agree with bringing in the 5th place from another region. I don't know if they should try and select the wrestler or use a random draw.

[Gator]

Another question. Does the 5th place finisher score team points at the state tournament? I'm guessing that they would since they are filling a void.

You would have plenty of coaches calling "foul" if it wasn't a wrestler from their region or team. Again, I'm guessing.......

[aaacoach89]

Another question. Does the 5th place finisher score team points at the state tournament? I'm guessing that they would since they are filling a void.

You would have plenty of coaches calling "foul" if it wasn't a wrestler from their region or team. Again, I'm guessing.......

I would say yes they score team points.

I think that the 5th place finisher should be selected based on the same criteria that is used for the rankings. I know the rankings are unofficial, but it would give each coach with a 5th place finisher a chance to argue their point.

Again, I don't think it's a perfect solution long term, BUT for this year and until a long term solution is figured out....WHY NOT? It would take very little time to roll it out. I read the memo to AD's and Coaches from Coach Archer. It states clearly "Wrestlers out - if for any reason you have a wrestlers that will not be able to wrestle in the state tournament, you need to call the 5th place wrestlers coach and me as soon as you know". Simple logic and reasoning would say that if THERE IS NO WRESTLER TO FILL THE SPOT, then that non existent wrestler is not able to wrestle.....so lets fill it with a 5th placer that can. If there is more than one spot, take a 5th place finisher from more than one region. This is simple, it would take no time at all to institute, so what's the hold up?

[Sally]

There are proper channels to go through and steps necessary that can not be taken this season.

[Love2wrestle]

I have seen on another post reference being made to the format track and field uses for Regionals and qualifying for states. I think that this method needs looked into further and possibly somehow incorporated into wrestling. If you look over regional track results for the past 10 years, you will see that several of the extra qualifiers come from one region and many times those athletes who did not place in the top 3 in region but made it to states by having one of the next 4 best times will place at states. They have done it like that for several years and it works.
Usually to qualify for XC states you would have to place in the top 10 individually. This year with the change of the regions they took a percentage of the top placers based on how many runners started the race. In region 1 AA-A it was around 19 runners to qualify. Not excactly sure how that would work for wrestling but something needs done to get the most competitive wrestlers to states and have no byes .

[aaacoach89]

There are proper channels to go through and steps necessary that can not be taken this season.

Please don't take my response as rude, because it is in no way intended to be that way... I simply don't know what channels and steps would need to be taken, that couldn't be handled by the conclusion of Regional weekend 2/18. Again, I sincerely don't know exactly what has to happen for something to be instituted. I would think that the WVSSAC has people that oversee the sport of wrestling. According to the WVSSAC website there are 9 members of the wrestling committee. The few that I have had the pleasure of meeting and talking to are extremely reasonable and love the sport. Are they the ones that would make this decision? If so, would it take more than a simple meeting or conference call to cover the topic, some to a conclusion, and draft a temporary ruling? I don't want to sound stupid or naive, I am just curious. I am just saying that this problem has been discussed a multitude of times all year long, so I am sure that they are familiar with the issue and have themselves thought of possible solutions.

[Sally]

You're not rude. You're asking questions.

The Wrestling Coaches Association (meets Friday morning of States) has to cover the topic and vote on it. Then the topic needs to be presented to the WVSSAC and they will either approve or deny. The season has already started, therefore getting the region format amended or changed is very unlikely.

The topic is something the coaches in WV Wrestling must agree. Question-are region 2 coaches really worried about what's happening in region 4?

[aaacoach89]

You're not rude. You're asking questions.

The Wrestling Coaches Association (meets Friday morning of States) has to cover the topic and vote on it. Then the topic needs to be presented to the WVSSAC and they will either approve or deny. The season has already started, therefore getting the region format amended or changed is very unlikely.

The topic is something the coaches in WV Wrestling must agree. Question-are region 2 coaches really worried about what's happening in region 4?

I understand. Thank you for clearing things up, I really didn't know what the process was. I don't think it's a matter of what is happening in Region IV. I do coach in Region IV, but I think it's more about what's best for the entire state tournament in all weight classes. I just want what's best. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't partial to my team.....but I just think that this sport does more for young men and women than any other sport I've been around, and to deliver the best to the fans and kids is my main concern. I would hope that would be the overwhelming opinion among a bunch of grown ups, who are sacrificing hours and hours to lead kids to a better future.....regardless of their regional affiliation. Again, thank you for answering.

[aaacoach89]

Also, one last question....how would one go about making sure that the question or proposed solution was presented when the coaches met? It may be too late or unlikely for this season, but next year this same situation will be facing us again. Maybe not with Region IV, but it could be another Region that has an issue.

[Sally]

Friday morning of state tournament as soon as weigh ins are finished. This year's meeting might be interesting.

Remember, even if the coaches agree and present it to the WVSSAC, they must still approve.

[Bearhugger]

You are correct. Spring Mills, Martinsburg and Jefferson have no 120. My question is what do you expect someone to do about it? What is the "fix" that you want? There are no JV 120 wrestlers to move into those open spots on those teams. I assume those teams also have no JV 113 they could bump up (I know Spring Mills does not) or I assume they would have done it. The only possible fix I see is to eliminate the regions all together and take the top 16 to states, but we know that isn't going to happen this year.

The fix "we" want is for a wrestler to be dug up from another region and fill this void. Participation in wrestling is terrible. The rules and systems are stacked against the kids who want to wrestle.

[Bearhugger]

You are correct. Spring Mills, Martinsburg and Jefferson have no 120. My question is what do you expect someone to do about it? What is the "fix" that you want? There are no JV 120 wrestlers to move into those open spots on those teams. I assume those teams also have no JV 113 they could bump up (I know Spring Mills does not) or I assume they would have done it. The only possible fix I see is to eliminate the regions all together and take the top 16 to states, but we know that isn't going to happen this year.

Coaching at a school that does not have a full line up, we are absent 3 weight classes, I understand what you are saying. I know that we recruit from the football team, during football season, our kids talk up the sport to their friends, heck......I even talk to kids that get into some trouble with behavior, grades, or attendance to sell them on the idea of the discipline in wrestling helping them out in other areas of their life. Sometimes it just doesn't pan out. However, I think that the solution to prevent byes at the state tournament is to take 5th place finishers out of Regions that have more than the 4, and fill the spots. Is that a perfect solution? Probably not, but it fills the spots with kids that can wrestle. This is something that COULD be done this year, and solve the problem until a better solution is settled on in the future. Region IV has 5 ranked, in the top 10, kids at this weight class. 1 of them will be sitting at home after Regionals.......while there is a bye/forfeit given at the State Tournament. That is ridiculous!!

I see no issue with doing that this year and finding a long-term solution next year, I just don't think it will happen considering how close we are to regionals and states.

Finding a solution to filling a bye could be addressed in an hour. Evaluate who the best 2 of the other 3 5th place 120 pounders are. Put those two in a pigtail on Thursday afternoon, February 23rd. The winner faces the corresponding regional champion per the pill draw. NO team points for the pigtail match.

OR...................we can do nothing! Go with 15 wrestlers (out of 16) at the state tournament and show the world that we cannot solve even the simplest of challenges.

[Bearhugger]

8 man bracket would eliminate byes...but would be best for now to get in the top 4 in your region....that's the road to Huntington.

Are you saying cut the state tournament from 16 wrestlers per weight class to 8?

[Bearhugger]

Another question. Does the 5th place finisher score team points at the state tournament? I'm guessing that they would since they are filling a void.

You would have plenty of coaches calling "foul" if it wasn't a wrestler from their region or team. Again, I'm guessing.......

I would say yes they score team points.

I think that the 5th place finisher should be selected based on the same criteria that is used for the rankings. I know the rankings are unofficial, but it would give each coach with a 5th place finisher a chance to argue their point.

Again, I don't think it's a perfect solution long term, BUT for this year and until a long term solution is figured out....WHY NOT? It would take very little time to roll it out. I read the memo to AD's and Coaches from Coach Archer. It states clearly "Wrestlers out - if for any reason you have a wrestlers that will not be able to wrestle in the state tournament, you need to call the 5th place wrestlers coach and me as soon as you know". Simple logic and reasoning would say that if THERE IS NO WRESTLER TO FILL THE SPOT, then that non existent wrestler is not able to wrestle.....so lets fill it with a 5th placer that can. If there is more than one spot, take a 5th place finisher from more than one region. This is simple, it would take no time at all to institute, so what's the hold up?

If the coaches and AD's have this memo NOW, then the solution needs to be made now.

[Bearhugger]

There are proper channels to go through and steps necessary that can not be taken this season.

Finding a single wrestler to fill a bye should not take an act of Congress. Fixing the system that has allowed this may require going through the proper channels (fixing the regions, finding an alternative method for fielding the state tournament, etc).

[Bearhugger]

There are proper channels to go through and steps necessary that can not be taken this season.

Please don't take my response as rude, because it is in no way intended to be that way... I simply don't know what channels and steps would need to be taken, that couldn't be handled by the conclusion of Regional weekend 2/18. Again, I sincerely don't know exactly what has to happen for something to be instituted. I would think that the WVSSAC has people that oversee the sport of wrestling. According to the WVSSAC website there are 9 members of the wrestling committee. The few that I have had the pleasure of meeting and talking to are extremely reasonable and love the sport. Are they the ones that would make this decision? If so, would it take more than a simple meeting or conference call to cover the topic, some to a conclusion, and draft a temporary ruling? I don't want to sound stupid or naive, I am just curious. I am just saying that this problem has been discussed a multitude of times all year long, so I am sure that they are familiar with the issue and have themselves thought of possible solutions.

Filling or allowing this bye to happen while top notch wrestlers sit at home is going to be a quick test for all of us to find out what kind of people we have overseeing wrestling in the state of West Virginia.

[vortexfan]

You are correct. Spring Mills, Martinsburg and Jefferson have no 120. My question is what do you expect someone to do about it? What is the "fix" that you want? There are no JV 120 wrestlers to move into those open spots on those teams. I assume those teams also have no JV 113 they could bump up (I know Spring Mills does not) or I assume they would have done it. The only possible fix I see is to eliminate the regions all together and take the top 16 to states, but we know that isn't going to happen this year.

The fix "we" want is for a wrestler to be dug up from another region and fill this void. Participation in wrestling is terrible. The rules and systems are stacked against the kids who want to wrestle.

Well said!
Has anyone looked at other weight classes in AAA or AA/A if there will be byes in other weight classes at states?
Would this be possible to do this year or is this any violation of rules?

[Bearhugger]

You're not rude. You're asking questions.

The Wrestling Coaches Association (meets Friday morning of States) has to cover the topic and vote on it. Then the topic needs to be presented to the WVSSAC and they will either approve or deny. The season has already started, therefore getting the region format amended or changed is very unlikely.

The topic is something the coaches in WV Wrestling must agree. Question-are region 2 coaches really worried about what's happening in region 4?

A bye at the state tournament is bad for wrestling. Participation is down. A bye at the state tournament sends the wrong message to promote the sport.

[Bearhugger]

Friday morning of state tournament as soon as weigh ins are finished. This year's meeting might be interesting.

Remember, even if the coaches agree and present it to the WVSSAC, they must still approve.

There needs to be a meeting (conference call) right after the regional tournaments and put a band-aid (bye filling wrestler) on this situation.

[masonbailey]

I could be wrong, because I'm not a coach....but, do lineups have to be submitted prior to regionals?

If so, then this problem could be addressed shortly after, and then maybe the bye situation could be handled BEFORE regionals start.

I do understand that it is late in the season for this, but if I were a member of the WVSSAC wrestling committee then I would want to handle this ASAP. I do like the 5th place pigtail (with no team points on the line). Could also be wrestled first, given their rest time and then wrestle that Region Champ. Especially since there is only one match on Thursday night, it could be done pretty easily IMO.

[Bearhugger]

I could be wrong, because I'm not a coach....but, do lineups have to be submitted prior to regionals?

If so, then this problem could be addressed shortly after, and then maybe the bye situation could be handled BEFORE regionals start.

I do understand that it is late in the season for this, but if I were a member of the WVSSAC wrestling committee then I would want to handle this ASAP. I do like the 5th place pigtail (with no team points on the line). Could also be wrestled first, given their rest time and then wrestle that Region Champ. Especially since there is only one match on Thursday night, it could be done pretty easily IMO.

When the brackets are put together for the regional tournaments, the "bye exposure" will be known throughout the entire state. I would figure all of this information could be compiled and communicated no later than February 15th or 16th. This gives plenty of people an entire week on how to decide how to fill a bye.

The other aspect that needs to be watched is the numerous weight classes that only have four wrestlers in each region. There are many! Within these weight classes, injuries, illnesses, etc, etc can happen and create more byes.